activation email

[Slade Kel]

I still don't know where this whole Journeyman Protector =/= Mandalorian Protector thing came from. Just because Jango's father was shown not wearing armor on Concord Dawn whilst working the farm?

It's specifically stated in the books that Jango's original family were not mandalorian. It's also stated in the books and in one or another (I can't remember which exactly) of the Insider articles that not all Concord Dawn inhabitants were mando, just that a high percentage of them gravitated toward the culture.

Likewise, the journeyman protector 'job' was specific to that one planet. While several mandalorians were at one point in time JPs, in each case they were described to have left or been exiled from the planet before becoming mandalorian. It's never stated that mandalorians could not be JPs, but there also isn't any indication of someone being both at the same time. There certainly is never an indication of someone serving as a mandalorian protector and a journeyman protector simultaneously.

As for Fett himself; he wore mando armor in honor of his father and for the intimidation factor for something like forty years before actually beginning to embrace his mandalorian heritage, in the form of taking over as mandalore at Fenn Shysa's dying request. Even then, he spent nearly twenty more years serving as little more than a figurehead and example to other mandos before involving himself in the culture. Even while leading the re-formed Mandalorian Protectors during the Vong war, he did not really go native; he did not even learn the language, he simply served as the commander of a group of mercenaries-turned-saboteurs.

[Peregrinus]

It's specifically stated in the books that Jango's original family were not mandalorian. It's also stated in the books and in one or another (I can't remember which exactly) of the Insider articles that not all Concord Dawn inhabitants were mando, just that a high percentage of them gravitated toward the culture.

Where? I thought I owned or had read everything out there, and I've never seen this. I find that odd about Jango's family, living on a colony world in the Mandalore Sector, having an Mandalorian last name, and Papa Fett being a Journeyman Protector -- a term I've only ever seen associated with Mandalorians until this thread.

Likewise, the journeyman protector 'job' was specific to that one planet. While several mandalorians were at one point in time JPs, in each case they were described to have left or been exiled from the planet before becoming mandalorian. It's never stated that mandalorians could not be JPs, but there also isn't any indication of someone being both at the same time. There certainly is never an indication of someone serving as a mandalorian protector and a journeyman protector simultaneously.

Again, where? Everything I have supports the exact opposite conclusion --

• 1983: Fenn Shysa names and describes Mandalorian Protectors, of which only he, Tobbi Dala, and Boba Fett survived out of 212. (comic)
• 1983: Tobbi Dala descibes his armour, identical to Boba's, as the uniform of a Mandalorian Protector. (comic)
• 1987: West End Games fleshes out Boba's backstory, saying in part that he was a Journeyman Protector on the colony world of Concord Dawn before being exiled for murdering his superior officer. (role-playing game supplement)
• Many years of nothing contradicting these data points.
• 2001: Boba shown in hologram with his wife and baby daughter, wearing his familiar armour. (comic)
• 2002: Jango established as growing up on the colony world of Concord Dawn, his father the self-described Journeyman Protector. Jaster Mereel given Boba's old WEG backstory. (comic)
• 2005: Jaster specifically described as Journeyman Protector on Concord Dawn, replaced by Papa Fett. Post-Episode II retcon makes Spar the third Protector in Shysa's group described back in '83, as Boba would have been too young. Spar reforms supercommando Protectors during Clone Wars. Shysa reforms Protectors after the fall of the Empire. (Insider article)
• 2008: Boba described as a Journeyman Protector at the time of the holo referenced above, reinforcing and filling out the WEG backstory, and reclaiming it for Boba. Finally fulfills his promise to Shysa to be Mandalore, lead his people, and command the Protectors. (novels)
• 2009: Spar retcon renforced. (Essential Atlas)
• 2009: Spar retcon reinforced. (role-playing game supplement)
• 2010: New Mandalorians deny knowledge of Jango and his actions, possibly throw monkey wrench into all of the above. (Clone Wars)

Twenty-eight years of material there. What am I missing?

--Jonah

[Hondo Karr]

Jango's last name is Vhett, from the Concord Dawn language. There are some reference in the Rep Com books and the Mandalorian guide in SWI that Concord Dawn is in the Mandalore system and a vast number of the human population among the Mandalorians have genetic markers from Concord Dawn. It is a seperate planet with a seperate identity.

Jango's father is referred to as the "Journeyman Protector for this planet" in Open Seasons. Makes it reppty clear it's planet specific. I do think that Mandalorian Protectors, while not filling their roles as MP's probably worked as JP's. Since there's never been a uniform or armor shown specifically labeld as JP's attire it's fair to assume they could have been like old west Marshall's and Sherrif's where only the badge (in this case the red girthbelt) differentiated them as being the law. Also, when jaster's band picks up young Jango there is some talk among the group about him not being Mandalorian but having the right stuff.

As far as the onscreen height stuff, what you're explaining are mechanics of filim making, not in universe reasoning. With Episode II the in universe reasoning is that Boba is a clone of Jango. Boba and Jango don't really appear on screen with many or any of the same characters so using relative height comparisons with actors is out. The actor selected to play Boba was simply too old and didnt have the "look" they wanted for Jango and the clones. Tem got the part but happened to be shorter. Since all the realistic height comparisons aren't in universe related it's easy to look past.

[Peregrinus]

Jango's last name is Vhett, from the Concord Dawn language. There are some reference in the Rep Com books and the Mandalorian guide in SWI that Concord Dawn is in the Mandalore system and a vast number of the human population among the Mandalorians have genetic markers from Concord Dawn. It is a seperate planet with a seperate identity.

And the LOTF books by the same author also talk about how Vhett is mando'a for "farmer", etc.

I don't see how noting genetic drift between two planets in a sector is an indicator that the population of one of them is or is not of a particular racial type or culture. I've always read that as indicating they're aware the population of Concord Dawn has been established long enough to develop its own genetic identity. Los Angeles and San Francisco are pretty different, but they're both still in California and populated by self-identified Californians.

Jango's father is referred to as the "Journeyman Protector for this planet" in Open Seasons. Makes it reppty clear it's planet specific. I do think that Mandalorian Protectors, while not filling their roles as MP's probably worked as JP's. Since there's never been a uniform or armor shown specifically labeld as JP's attire it's fair to assume they could have been like old west Marshall's and Sherrif's where only the badge (in this case the red girthbelt) differentiated them as being the law. Also, when jaster's band picks up young Jango there is some talk among the group about him not being Mandalorian but having the right stuff.

That last bit's always niggled at me a little. THe writing in Open Seasons was a little loose in places, and that was one that, at the time in 2002, just didn't make sense. The general Mando fan community that I was aware of through the '80s and '90s always understood Concord Dawn to be a Mandalorian colony world. Having Papa Fett call himself a Journeyman Protector (a term heretofore only associated wtih Boba Fett) and the presence of other Mandalorians (and Jaster thinking it would be safe haven from the Death Watch) just lent support to that notion. So little things like that line just didn't fit the rest of the presentation.

Prior to Karen Traviss making interpretations difficult, there used to be portrayals of Mandalorian civilians who weren't trained to fight and didn't wear the armor all the time. These days I'd say it would be the distinction between New Mandalorians and True Mandalorians. I'd always read that line as meaning Jango wasn't one of the trained warriors most people identify as Mandalorians, may because he was a kid, maybe because his family were non-violent. Now, I'd say the True Mandalorians didn't consider people not living by the resol'nare to be truly Mandalorian (hence the name of the movement), and thus the comment. I'd prefer to ask the author what he meant by that...

I can find a lot of ways other than "the residents of Concord Dawn arent' Mandalorians" to rationalize things. And have.

I'm sorry to be troublesome. It just bothers me when I reach what seems to me to be a natural conclusion from accumulated data points over the course of decades, adding neach new piece as it comes along and integrating the whole mess together (sometimes requiring retconning to make it all work)... and others who have seen the same data points reach almost exactly the opposite conclusion than I have.

I want to know what I'm missing or have misread. To the best of my knowledge I have or have read everything that's ever mentioned protectors of any kind, and the association has always been there. My present conclusion is based on all of these data and is:

There were Protectors around under the New Mandalorians. Jaster was one, Papa Fett was one. We don't know how many worlds there are in the Mandalore Sector, or what their population densities are, and how many Protectors are required per what unit (world? district? million people?).

Jaster killed his superior (was he on Concord Dawn, too? Mandalore? Is there a Master Protector for each world as well as a Journeyman? How about Apprentices?) because he was immoral. Kinda vague, but probably has something to do with establishing the Supercommando Codex and the True Mandalorian Movement -- almost certainly to push back against the New Mandalorian philosophy, which a "true Mandalorian" would consider immoral.

(Sidebar: Unknown if the police we saw in the Mandalore episodes of Clone Wars are called Protectors or something else. If something else, do the New Mandalorians even have Protectors. If not, how was Papa Fett associated, or was he? Maybe he was just a sympathizer who could get away with being part of an out-of-favour organization by being so far away from the center of government...)

This part is in flux currently, due to canon considerations, but eithe rbehind her back or with her support or by overthrowing her government, Spar becomes Mandalore during the Clone Wars and puts out the call (implication is that this action is due to his Jango memories resurfacing more and more -- unknown what this means for Jango's cadre wiped out at Galidraan -- did they call themselves anything other than True Mandalorians? If not, why did Jango, and later so many of his people, have the green-and-yellow armour we've had referred to as a Protector's uniform?). The two hundred-odd sector police (JPs? Something else? Combination of existing Protectors and non-Protector police?) respond and he organizes them into the supercommando Protectors Fenn Shysa referred to. All but three are wiped out in the wars. Only two return to Mandalore -- Shysa and Dala.

Shysa remains an underground guerrilla leader against the Imperial presence on Mandalore. After the fall of the Empire, he reforms the Protectors, and -- as far as I know -- they don't get disbanded again.

I just can't shake the three biggies: Tobbi Dala saying "this uniform marks me as a Mandalorian Protector", Boba being described as a Journeyman Protector before turning bounty hunter, and Boba being shown wearing armour of that same colour scheme in a holo taken at the time he was a Journeyman Protector. And nothing else I've seen contradicts that association. Some requires a little rationalizeing, but less than saying they're separate organizations.

Unfortunately, since no one does any research any more, we're likely to see more and more people using Wookieepedia as their pimary data source, or not bothering to think things through -- like how we got the Fenn Shysa picture in the character guide wearing armour coloured like his fully-armoured appearance in the marvel comic -- despite that being an inaccurate portrayal of the Boba Fett colour scheme (remember, at the time, that was supposed to be Boba, not Spar). Rather than take the opportunity to correct for bad early '80s comic-colouring technology, they perpetuated the error and thus lent it credence.

From checking primary sources, both on my own initiative and the ones listed in the relevent Wookieepedia articles, I see nothing that says Journeyman Protectors and Mandalorian Protectors are separate organizations, and much that implies the one is a rank or status within the other. Someone who contributed to Wookieepedia made that leap, and it wouldn't be the first mistake on the site...

I haven't checked in a while, but I think they still describe Magma Troopers as red Stormtroopers, despite the fact that both sources given (which are actually transcriptions of each other -- the Visual Dictionary and the Databank) don't show or describe Magma Troopers in any way -- just one sentence that mentions they exist. And the only red Stormtroopers we've ever seen in an EU source were in a single short story, where they were explicitly called out as Royal Guards in red Stormtrooper armour for a special-ops assignment.

And I got a huge backlash for urging the separation of Magma Troopers from red Stormtroopers on the Spec Ops Detachment board. I am not saying one or the other doesn't exist. I'm not saying I don't like either of them. I'm just saying they're not the same thing, and there is much resistance to that idea, despite the evidence. And now Gentle Giant has made a Magma Trooper statue that is -- wait for it -- a red Stormtrooper... with a pauldron, no less, not seen or mentioned as being associated with either the Royal Guard Stormtrooper armour or the Magma Troopers. Their inspiration was 501st members' "Magma Trooper" costumes -- some of which have pauldrons. And now the Spec Ops board is using that statue as further justification for the Magma Trooper = red Stormtrooper side of things. This is called the echo chamber effect.

*sigh**

Sorry to be all ranty, but I feel strongly about this, as you can see. *chuckle*

--Jonah

[Slade Kel]

I think a big gap between our opinions is the matter of retcons; I come into it going by data of the last decade, perhaps two, in which it's essentially be retconned that Dala, Shysa and Spar were Mandalorian Protectors together, not Dala, Shysa and Fett. Likewise, it's suggested to Fett met Shysa for the first time when he tracked him down to Shogun, intending to collect a bounty placed on his head by the kaminoans. This data comes from Imperial Commando: 501st, the RPG supplement Galaxy At War, and is obliquely referenced in some of the Legacy novels, though I can't remember exactly which.

Jango's family having not been mandalorian is stated in Order 66, when Skirata brings up that he has Jango's sister, Arla. Shysa gets excited, saying it's high time for another female Mand'alor, Skirata says "She's not one of us, Fen'ika. Only Jango joined us". Which to me, translates to Jango's family having not been mando. After all, Jango and Arla were both old enough to have been well on their way to completing their training as mandalorian by their ages at the time.

In The Essential Atlas, Concord Dawn is described as a planet conquered by the mandalorians. In The History of the Mandalorians article of Star Wars Insider 80, Jaster Mereel is stated to have been a native of that world, and a journeyman protector, before being exiled for killing his superior, at which point he went on to become mand'alor. Specifically, it says: "A native of Concord Dawn, Jaster Mereel was a respected Journeyman Protector, until his rigid ethical code led him to kill a corrupt superior. Charged with murder and exiled, Mereel soon after became a Mandalorian shock trooper and, eventually, their chieftain." The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia corroborates this and explains further that the shock troopers "took him in and trained him to be one of their best mercenaries", suggesting that he was not mando before this point.

Going further, technically, MPs did not exist until Spar, Shysa and Dala created them (as referenced in Galaxy at War), long after JP already existed as the job of law enforcement on Concord Dawn. Jaster Mereel was not a Mandalorian Protector, it was simply his Supercommando Codex that led to the creation of the MPs.

So, going by the current 'canon' for values of the term 'canon', and given that Journeyman Protector is specific to Concord Dawn, and can be held by non-mandalorians like Jango Fett's father, it cannot be considered synonymous with Mandalorian Protector. That does not mean that someone could not be both simultaneously, just that the terms are not interchangeable.


I did a lot of back and forth editing in the above, as well as referencing those of the sources that I mentioned that I have on hand at the moment. Some of it does come from memory, which means I may not be spot on, but the gist of it is there. I have absolutely no quarrel with the stated color scheme of the Mandalorian Protectors, my only contention is that MP and JP are in fact wholly separate jobs/descriptions.

[Peregrinus]

***FURTHER DISCUSSION OF IN-UNIVERSE TRIVIA -- NON COSTUME RELATED -- IF NOT INTERESTED IN THIS DISCUSSION, SKIP***

Thanks, Slade. Truly. Having places to look helps.

I think a big gap between our opinions is the matter of retcons; I come into it going by data of the last decade, perhaps two, in which it's essentially be retconned that Dala, Shysa and Spar were Mandalorian Protectors together, not Dala, Shysa and Fett. Likewise, it's suggested to Fett met Shysa for the first time when he tracked him down to Shogun, intending to collect a bounty placed on his head by the kaminoans. This data comes from Imperial Commando: 501st, the RPG supplement Galaxy At War, and is obliquely referenced in some of the Legacy novels, though I can't remember exactly which.

Mainly Revelation, but some in Sacrifice. But yeah, I know Boba was retconned to be Spar. WHat I meant was that that didn't negate the other circumstantial evidence around it. i.e., Boba being a JP and wearing armour id'ed by Dala as being the unifom of an MP.

Jango's family having not been mandalorian is stated in Order 66, when Skirata brings up that he has Jango's sister, Arla. Shysa gets excited, saying it's high time for another female Mand'alor, Skirata says "She's not one of us, Fen'ika. Only Jango joined us". Which to me, translates to Jango's family having not been mando. After all, Jango and Arla were both old enough to have been well on their way to completing their training as mandalorian by their ages at the time.

Ah. Hm. I could still interpret that a variety of ways. With all th einternal factions, tendency to adopt, etc, "one of us" can mean almost anything. But I see your point. I'd skipped the stuff about Arla in my hastily-skimmed review.

In The Essential Atlas, Concord Dawn is described as a planet conquered by the mandalorians.

When? *chuckle* But yeah, that reads differently than "colonized". Hm. I must've missed that.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia corroborates this and explains further that the shock troopers "took him in and trained him to be one of their best mercenaries", suggesting that he was not mando before this point.

Which edition of the Encyclopedia is this? Just want to make sure before I dig the damn three-volume slipcased set out, cus it's a beast to manhandle. *heh* I always read that as just that he hadn't been trained as a supercommando prior to that point. In current parlance, that he'd been a good little New Mandalorian, got sick of it, and the traditionalists took him in. Still a variety of ways to interpret the written word. I see where you're coming from -- just have to challenge every assertion (the way you're challenging mine) until the ones that can't be disproved are all that are left.

Going further, technically, MPs did not exist until Spar, Shysa and Dala created them (as referenced in Galaxy at War), long after JP already existed as the job of law enforcement on Concord Dawn. Jaster Mereel was not a Mandalorian Protector, it was simply his Supercommando Codex that led to the creation of the MPs.

Yeah, I know about that. I know the author and am in conversation with him about both the Protectors and the Thyrsian Sun Guards... I'll leave the GAW entry in abeyance for now.

So, going by the current 'canon' for values of the term 'canon', and given that Journeyman Protector is specific to Concord Dawn, and can be held by non-mandalorians like Jango Fett's father, it cannot be considered synonymous with Mandalorian Protector. That does not mean that someone could not be both simultaneously, just that the terms are not interchangeable.

I'm willing to see Jaster  imprinting his ideals on Jango, and Spar's memories from Jango leading him to take the JP ethic and translating it to his version of the MPs. Since Boba -- in current EU canon -- was still a JP on Concord Dawn, post-Clone Wars, and wore the uniform Tobbi Dala described as the uniform of the MPs, I'm still reluctant to completely flip my conclusions. Hopefully, you can see how that still needs to be resolved... I could almost say Spar revised the Concord Dawn JPs into his MPs, were it not for that matter.

I did a lot of back and forth editing in the above, as well as referencing those of the sources that I mentioned that I have on hand at the moment. Some of it does come from memory, which means I may not be spot on, but the gist of it is there. I have absolutely no quarrel with the stated color scheme of the Mandalorian Protectors, my only contention is that MP and JP are in fact wholly separate jobs/descriptions.

Thank you very much indeed for quoting sources. That gives me specific places to look, as I said above. We still have differing conclusions, and I still think people who say Jango wasn't Mandalorian prior to Jaster adopting him... They're on a Mandalorian (okay, conquored, but still) planet, in Mandalorian space, are considered a safe haven by Jaster for his True Mandalorians, and have a Mandalorian last name... but aren't actually ethnically/racially Mandalorian. Not buyin' that. That's one that even George himself wouldn't get me to swallow. But that may come down to just my contrariness.

There's more, but I need to talk to Dan and Karen before I speculate further.

--Jonah

[Peregrinus]

Bringing things over into here. I don't want to start an argument, but it seems the matter has once again come round to head-butting viewpoints. Here's mine...

Concord Dawn was conquered by the Mandalorians before the Mandalorian Civil War, so they've been Mandalorian in culture and genetics for several thousand years.

It's unknown how long the New Mandalorian movement has been going on. Some speculation is that the Sacking of Coruscant toward the end of the Great Galactic War was avenged by the Republic bombing Mandalore, and the movement started then. The dialogue from the Clone Wars episodes featuring Mandalorians left me with the feeling the movement was more recent -- years, perhaps decades, and probably not more than a century.

A lot of stuff in the 60 BBY - 6 ABY range is in flux currently, thanks to the Clone Wars. We don't know which characters will still exist on the other side, or what events will still have taken place. We don't know what will be retconned to within an inch of its life, and what will remain unaltered.

Jaster was a Journeyman Protector on Concord Dawn prior to quitting or being kicked out. Papa Fett's comment ("I'm the Journeyman Protector for Concord Dawn") implies there's just one for the whole planet. This, most likely due to sparse population on what is still essentially a frontier world. It's unknown if he had any Apprentices or any other regular or irregular militia backing him up.

When Jaster left and formed the True Mandalorians, he had a fair number of ready followers. He, and they, all had similar armour. I don't know if that was armour he had as a Protector or somethign he got later. I don't know if the colour scheme was something inherited, or something he established. Insufficient data, either way.

Some years later, when Jango became a squad leader under Jaster, he was sporting an outfit that was a dead ringer for Boba's in Episde V, with the additional armour we're familiar with Jango having. I haven't seen anything indicating Jango served as a Protector, and was most likely fighting for Jaster and his True Mandalorians that whole time.

Later, after Jaster died, Jango's True Mandalorian forces on Galidraan all had drab green armour, too, while Jango's was closer to a dirty version of what he was wearing in Episode II. Unclear where his green paint job went. Still no association with Protectors.

That brings us up to about twelve or thirteen years before Episode II. With the destruction of the True Mandalorians and Jango's capture, we have a break in the timeline. We also have no idea what was going on in the Mandalore Sector, or on Mandalore or Concord Dawn. We don't know who Papa Fett's successor was, or anything about the nature of Protectors -- of any modifier -- in this era.

The next mention is right around the outbreak of the Clone Wars when Spar, masquerading as Boba, rallies 212 supercommandos to fight for the Separatists. Fenn Shysa's now-dated account says that they were "charged with the ultimate protection o' the Mandalore system", and were called Mandalorian Protectors. This was the backstory West End Games seized and expanded upon for Boba's backstory when they had him being a Journeyman Protector -- he was intended to be a part of that organization.

We can't speculate on the extent of the earlier Protectors, there's no data. We saw a lot of True Mandalorians in the same general colour scheme as Jaster, an ex-Protector. We don't know if the conflict between the True Mandalorians and Death Watch spawned the New Mandalorian movement, or if that was going on at the same time, but in a different place. All we know that's germane here is that Spar essentially restarted the True Mandalorian movement, albeit not under that name. We don't know if he formed a new version of a defunct organization, or re-formed an organization that had faded, or simply rallied as many as could fight out of a stable force already spread out through the sector, or inducted a bunch of non-Protector policemen into the organization, or what. *shrug*

At any rate, about seven years after this, we have a holo of Boba -- himself a Journeyman Protector at that point -- wearing the outfit we're familiar with from Episode V. So there's another correlation.

And then, of course, about eighteen years further on, we have Tobbi Dala referring to his gear as the uniform of a Mandalorian Protector.

Now, then...

Jaster was kicked out of the Protectors for murdering his superior officer. So was Boba, years later. Both were Journeyman Protectors on Concord Dawn. Both had superior officers that they were under the direct command of. I don't know if those superiors were stationed on, near, or far from Concord Dawn, but they existed. That implies the presence of more than a single Protector in the vicinity of Concord Dawn at any given time, both before and after the Clone Wars.

Jango wearing the uniform when he wasn't a Protector, but was Jaster's protegι, and Boba wearing it later when he was a Protector carries implications. As does the presence of other True Mandalorians wearing the same colour scheme across a fairly narrow palette.

Then we get to the immediately relevant problem of the Marvel comics. Early '80s coloring technology and artistic laziness aren't the same thing as what's in the movies. The white cheeks are a colouring error/contrivance. The all-green ensemble is a good way to same money on colour separations. And the funky round "T" symbol on the shoulders is a very bad misinterpretation of Boba's mythosaur badge. All of that is why I'm ignoring that symbol and those colours in the process of building my Fenn Shysa. He's going to look like Boba's squadmate -- same colours, different markings and accessories. If we're going to use the Marvel comics as the standard, then I insist the 501st mandate blue and purple Stormtroopers.

I maintain that True Mandalorian/Journeyman Protector/Mandalorian Protector is a false division. As far as I can tell, Jaster and his True Mandalorians were Protectors or ex-Protectors, Spar revitalized them after they were all but wiped out, and "Journeyman" is simply a rank within that organization. I maintain that the Protectors' badge is Jaster's yellow or blue mythosaur skull (earlier), or Boba's red mythosaur skull withrectangular(ish) white(ish) background (later). I maintain that the "wheat sheaf" badge on Boba's chest plate is his family crest, inherited from Jango, inherited from Jaster -- who probably adopted Jango after his parents were killed.

My suggestion for an inclusive standard for this costume range would start out:

• Dark to medium neutral-tone flightsuit (grey, tan, blue-grey, green...)
• Dark bare metal or grey-green/olive green/dark green armour and helmet (white cheeks optional)
• Shoulders and knees in a matching contrast colour (dark yellow most prevalent, but also red or blue)
• Visor frame in red, yellow, or blue

• Optional red-brown sash (we haven't seen many wearing one)
• Optional contrasting gauntlets -- matched or mismatched
• Optional rocketpack (neither Jango nor any of his men had one at Korda VI)

Let's see if we can keep the disagreement civil.

--Jonah

[Hondo Karr]

As always, I think there is alot of great incite in what you're sharing Jonah. I do default to you as the go to guy for the info.

But, there is still alot fo speculation. And that is all fine and dandy for your, mine and someone elses custom character. But, without explicit canon ties to bind the threads, specualtion isn't canon, it's fanon. By no means does that cheapen your insite or my respect for it, it's just the way it is.

Whether theyre renamed same groups, whether theyre different groups, whether they are some mix and match thereof is unspecified at this time.

We know we have a canon group of True Mando who all wear a medium classed armor. We have a group of Mandalorian Protectors who all wear a light classed armor and jetpacks. And they only clear tie to the Journeyman Protector in all of it is the red girthebelt which only Boba is seen wearing a red one.



As for the purple/blue TK's... show STG teh source material and it may be considered!

[Peregrinus]

Another idea that occurred to me after I posted is that maybe the Protector uniform evolved over the course of several decades from what Jaster wore to what Boba wore.

And Jango reverting to Jaster's colours by the time of Galidraan makes sense given how seriously he took the whole "Jaster's Legacy" thing.

I know there's nothing to prove it. It just seems simpler to say that it's all one group that evolved over time, rather than that Boba was a Journeyman Protector who just happened to be shown at the time wearing what was identified by Tobbi Dala as the uniform of a Mandalorian Protector that just happened to be identical to what Jango was wearing when he was fighting as a True Mandalorian. *chuckle*

If I can track down the various artists and writers to get their comments and intentions, would that be taken into consideration at all? Hypothetically.

I'm hoping some of it gets put to rest, retcon or no retcon, this season on Clone Wars. Maybe we'll see Spar shatter the facade of pacifism and lead the Protectors into battle against the Republic's forces. Frustrating trying to nail down costumes in an era that's presently in a state of massive flux...

And I'd be terrified to see someone tackle a Marvel-coloured Stormtrooper. *shudder*

--Jonah

[Slade Kel]

I will probably end up repeating some of my earlier points, as I'm really not going to go read through the old walls 'o text, though I did read through your whole new post Peregrinus.

The most of the argument is well reasoned, and you give excellent examples of the evolution from one to another to another. However, from a costuming standpoint, I feel there's definite delineation, essentially three separate mini-eras. The JPs existed first, and according to Insider 80, Jaster was one before becoming a shock trooper and eventually mand'alor. As far as I know, there hasn't been anything to retcon that specific bit of data, but there's also nothing that says Jaster was not a mando while being a JP.

From there, yes he went on to form the TMs, and I'm morally certain he would have carried over some of the ideals of the JPs, but it was still a wholly new and separate organization. Then, later, Spar went on to form the MPs, again carrying some of the traditions of the TMs due to his memories of Jango's life, and no doubt due to him recruiting former TMs. Again, though, it's technically a new organization, just with it's origins in the earlier organization. Without concrete data to the contrary, I stand by them being separate.

As to Boba wearing his MP styled armor while serving as a JP, the color scheme is also stated as being the most common color scheme among mandalorians, not to mention having been the chosen color scheme of the True Mandalorians when they were shattered on Galidraan. Consider, too, that Boba went on to be mand'alor and command MPs after getting the sack as a JP and exile from Concord Dawn. So we still have to agree to disagree .

Now, if you can get the artists and writers to give their comments and intentions, I'd be greatly interested to hear them, however I don't think I'd be comfortable with using those intentions to alter the 'official stance' on JP v MP v TM. I feel that the best thing to do is to stick with what the average quasi-lay-person could determine from the existing source data. It's sort of like Karen Traviss's comments on how she would have ended the Imperial Commando series; sure, it ties up loose ends for us, but it can be contradicted without even the annoyance of retcon because it isn't 'official word'.

• Dark to medium neutral-tone flightsuit (grey, tan, blue-grey, green...)
• Dark bare metal or grey-green/olive green/dark green armour and helmet (white cheeks optional)
• Shoulders and knees in a matching contrast colour (dark yellow most prevalent, but also red or blue)
• Visor frame in red, yellow, or blue

• Optional red-brown sash (we haven't seen many wearing one)
• Optional contrasting gauntlets -- matched or mismatched
• Optional rocketpack (neither Jango nor any of his men had one at Korda VI)

These, I'll certainly take into account, along with Boklast's suggestions in the TM thread. We are still discussing the MP/JP/TM reqs in the Council chamber, and I feel that so far we've given all such suggestions due consideration. Once we tie up a few loose ends, I'll be putting together the reqs and we'll see about forging a new canon brigade so I can post them and have these discussions moved back over.

Of course, those requirements won't be set in stone per se; they'll be official, but if anyone has a contention with any particular part they are free to bring it forward, and if there's strong enough basis for changing anything I'm certainly willing to do so.

[Peregrinus]

From a costuming standpoint, I feel there's definite delineation, essentially three separate mini-eras.

That's one of the things I'm wibbly on... I can see a clear progression, but at the same time, there are outliers that hold over from one era to the next, or predate the general appearance of a later one. *shrug* Why I am leaning toward one macro-category, with loose base requirements, and if one is intending to depict a particular era/version from within that, the requirements get tighter.

The JPs existed first, and according to Insider 80, Jaster was one before becoming a shock trooper and eventually mand'alor. As far as I know, there hasn't been anything to retcon that specific bit of data, but there's also nothing that says Jaster was not a mando while being a JP.

Right. In-universe timeline, Journeyman Protector has its first mention in Jaster's old profession. Other comments from around that era lead me to believe it was larger than just a few individuals, and extended past Concord Dawn. And we know they continued to exist after the massacre at Galidraan and the Clone Wars, as Boba was one several years after the end of the Wars.

From there, yes he went on to form the TMs, and I'm morally certain he would have carried over some of the ideals of the JPs, but it was still a wholly new and separate organization.

Right. I was making an admitted presumption that a lot of his followers were Protectors or ex-Protectors, based on paint schemes.

Then, later, Spar went on to form the MPs, again carrying some of the traditions of the TMs due to his memories of Jango's life, and no doubt due to him recruiting former TMs.

Did he? I thought the TMs were wiped out save for Jango and Silas. I thought Spar rallied the MPs from mercs and police.

As to Boba wearing his MP styled armor while serving as a JP, the color scheme is also stated as being the most common color scheme among mandalorians --

It is? Where is this? I've never read that...

Consider, too, that Boba went on to be mand'alor and command MPs after getting the sack as a JP and exile from Concord Dawn.

Well, yes... Over fifty years later. He was an independent bounty hunter in between, with almost no ties to his heritage.

I don't think I'd be comfortable with using those intentions to alter the 'official stance' on JP v MP v TM.

Whose official stance? The Mercs or LFL? The only clarifications I can find not on here are on Wookieepedia, which doesn't really count.

It's sort of like Karen Traviss's comments on how she would have ended the Imperial Commando series; sure, it ties up loose ends for us, but it can be contradicted without even the annoyance of retcon because it isn't 'official word'.

Thanks to being a Trek fan almost as long as a Star Wars fan, I've gotten used to using behind-the-scenes intentions and deleted scenes as "official unless/until contradicted". So I'll have to see what they might have to say before we can even try to sift out anything that might be relevant. I'll see what I can find...

Off to work on costumes now...

--Jonah

[Hondo Karr]

The club needs a fluid official stance until LF creates one that differs at which time we reevaluate, if that ever happens.

As for the colors, it's depicted in the Legacy of the Force for certain when Jaina is on Madalore. Also, with the exception of maybe 1/2 dozen canon images, excluding Deathwatch, most images of Mandalorians are seen in colors simialr to Boba Fett's.

[Peregrinus]

Hm... I'll re-read the LotF books, then, to find that.

Let's see -- Jaster's/Jango's True Mandalorians; Spar, Fenn Shysa, and Tobbi Dala (and, presumably, the rest of the MPs that fought in the Clone Wars, but that's not actually shown...); Boba (not counting the Holiday Special); Jodo Kast; Shysa's latter-day re-formed Protectors... Everyone else I can think of was wearing some other colour scheme. Got more sources fo rme to check out?

--Jonah

[Hondo Karr]

That's about the bulk of it. And the Legacy mando's wear the same colors. Llats Ward as well.

Aside from that you have a few that have popped up in the last couple years in Insider art frames. Most are described as having different colors, few are seen.

There is definatly, in canon visual references, a preponderance of characters, mostly unnamed and fodder, wearing the green armor.

[Slade Kel]

Did he? I thought the TMs were wiped out save for Jango and Silas. I thought Spar rallied the MPs from mercs and police.

Mostly an assumption on my part; there's no evidence to support it, but theoretically if Silas survived, then others might have. Also consider that Kal Skirata and Walon Vau both state that they 'should've been on Galidraan' suggesting that there were folks with TM ties or leanings that were not present.

Aside from the LotF books, also in the Republic/Imperial Commando books (don't remember precisely which) it's pointed out that green is common; from Fi's perspective when he's waiting for Parja. Later, when Kal and company need to go 'incognito' so that the new Imperial presence doesn't notice them, several of them switch to generic green plates, as they're common and wouldn't be noticeable.