Mandalorian Mercs Costume Club

Mandalorian Armor => Equipment & Accessories => Electronics => Topic started by: Kebii'tra Verda on Aug 20, 2013, 07:43 AM

Title: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: Kebii'tra Verda on Aug 20, 2013, 07:43 AM
...I'm stumped.

I've grown up around home made electronics. I've been able to decipher and put together small circuit designs since I can remember. I've even been able to figure out how to slightly modify some designs to make them work the way I want them too.

But I found a circuit design a few months ago that has me stumped. I have checked and rechecked the components, tried changing out some I thought may have been either bad or wrong, traced the path of each and every line several times to make sure they were installed correctly...

and the dang thing still doesn't work. Grr.. :'(

Here is a pic of the circuit:
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-PXCdtIr1VKg/TvFblMxOdzI/AAAAAAAAAak/xjSnoz7hf24/s400/LED+bar.png)

The IC4017 chip usually makes each of the 10 LEDs light up in sequence 1-10, but only one LED at a time. The general idea behind this design is the added SCRs serve to hold the charge on the LED to make it stay lit until all are lit, and then they are supposed to all go out and the process start all over again.

Component list:
R2 and R3 are 10K ohm
all other Rs are 1K ohm
VR1 and VR2 are 47K ohm variable resistors
all caps are 10uF, 25V
All SCRs are BT169
IC1 is a 4017
LEDs are maker's choice

He does not give a suggestion for the T1, T2, and T3, but in reading, he specifically says T3 is a PNP transistor. Nothing specific is said about T1 or T2, but it can be implied by the schematic that they are similar. So all three are PNP transistors.

Here's what I built:
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n234/whitenoiseentertainment/CAM009871_zpsc1b1722e.jpg) (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/whitenoiseentertainment/media/CAM009871_zpsc1b1722e.jpg.html)
Closeup of the board:
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n234/whitenoiseentertainment/CAM009881_zps51f99ae6.jpg) (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/whitenoiseentertainment/media/CAM009881_zps51f99ae6.jpg.html)
When the battery is first attached, this is all that lights up:
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n234/whitenoiseentertainment/CAM009901_zps92604363.jpg) (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/whitenoiseentertainment/media/CAM009901_zps92604363.jpg.html)
When the IC is pulled out and shifter around a few times (but not fully seated back into the socket) like this:
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n234/whitenoiseentertainment/CAM009921_zpsb164b277.jpg) (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/whitenoiseentertainment/media/CAM009921_zpsb164b277.jpg.html)
I can get all ten of the graph LEDs to light up:
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n234/whitenoiseentertainment/CAM009911_zps426afe4a.jpg) (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/whitenoiseentertainment/media/CAM009911_zps426afe4a.jpg.html)
But the two independent LEDs on the lower right will only flash for a split second.

Also, the variable 47K ohm resistors have no effect on anything.

I know this is a jumbled mess. My hope was to create the chasing bar graph LED for an addition to my costume. But for the life of me, I cannot figure this out!

Any help would be appreciated.

daVID.
Title: Re: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: Dresdon Acacin on Aug 20, 2013, 07:50 AM
What you may have to do is chech your soldered connections. Dremals can help in isolating connections that might be bridged or something...at least that's what I have to do with my 140W well since its a bit excessive and imprecise for this kind of work :/
Title: Re: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: Kebii'tra Verda on Aug 20, 2013, 08:06 AM
Yeah, I've checked that even with a magnifying glass to make sure nothing is crossed and I can't see anything that would be a problem.

daVID.
Title: Re: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: Dresdon Acacin on Aug 20, 2013, 08:24 AM
I know exactly how you feel....then once you figure it out your kicking yourself >.<
Title: Re: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: ashoggoth on Aug 21, 2013, 05:34 AM
I don't know if this helps, but looking a quick glance at that schematic, T1 and T2 are NPN transistors, only T3 is a PNP. I'll look again when I wake up but that may be the issue you're having.
Title: Re: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: Kebii'tra Verda on Aug 21, 2013, 07:20 AM
I don't know if this helps, but looking a quick glance at that schematic, T1 and T2 are NPN transistors, only T3 is a PNP. I'll look again when I wake up but that may be the issue you're having.

Okay...now that you mention it, I just now noticed that on T1 and T2, the "arrow" showing power flow is pointing out, not in like T3.

Off to the 'Shack I go.

But the next question is...there are so many different types of npns. Which one do I get...

daVID.
Title: Re: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: ashoggoth on Aug 21, 2013, 02:51 PM
Off the top of my head I couldn't recommended any specifically, but I would recommend seeing which fit best into the circuit properties. I have some circuit resources that I can check, I'll let you know what I can find out, hopefully before work this afternoon.
Title: Re: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: Kebii'tra Verda on Aug 21, 2013, 06:16 PM
I'm going to start with the same size and configuration as the ones I already have. The simple half-rod look, not the ginormous ones I saw (with screw-down heatsinks). I won't be going to the Shack until tomorrow, so I probably won't have an update until then.

daVID.
Title: Re: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: ashoggoth on Aug 21, 2013, 07:04 PM
Ok, I've got some transistors at home from when I went through avionics school. I'll check those and see if I can give you a number, but that won't be for close to 8 hours.
Title: Re: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: Kebii'tra Verda on Aug 21, 2013, 07:05 PM
That's fine. I won't be heading out to the Shack for about 15 hours... ;D

daVID.
Title: Re: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: ashoggoth on Aug 22, 2013, 03:40 AM
The transistors I still have from school that are NPNs are both 2N3904. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2N3904 has some info. I hope that helps. I'm not sure what the current in your circuit is, but that one should work. If its a higher current look for a 2N2222 would work...but I doubt this circuit has the current to make that a good choice. If that doesn't get it going right, let me know and I'll see if I can virtually troubleshoot it.
Title: Re: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: Kebii'tra Verda on Aug 22, 2013, 07:37 AM
Yep, those are the ones I was looking at. I'm using a 9V source.

Thanks for the info!

daVID.
Title: Re: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: Thaxos on Aug 22, 2013, 02:02 PM
I concur on the 2N3904 for NPN.
3906 is your PNP.

Those should do just fine for this type of project, they're the go to transistors for typical stuff like this.
Title: Re: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: ashoggoth on Aug 22, 2013, 02:45 PM
Thaxos is right on the 3906, forgot to mention that. Let us know if that gets the circuit on track. I was looking at using a LED bar graph display thing once I got to wiring up my electronics, so this is good to see.
Title: Re: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: Kebii'tra Verda on Aug 22, 2013, 04:10 PM
Well, osik.

I changed out the two incorrect PNPs for NPNs...and nothing.

Now no lights on the bars are coming on.

I did install a switch inline with the battery, and now the only thing that is happening is the two extra LEDs inline with R4 are flashing for just a split second.

Dang it...I'm going crosseyed trying to figure this out.

daVID.
Title: Re: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: ashoggoth on Aug 22, 2013, 07:09 PM
Ill see if I can troubleshoot it when I get home. Yay for working odd hours. Might have to wait for Saturday when I get some parts myself and try it out.

EDIT: try flipping the NPNs around. They might be in backwards? I dunno it's the first thing that came to mind.
Title: Re: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: Kebii'tra Verda on Aug 22, 2013, 08:27 PM
I did a google search on them to see what their pin configuration was. It's virtually the same as the PNPs. If you're looking at the flat side with the prongs downward, pin 1 is on the left, then 2 then 3. I checked several sources (including the packaging) just to be sure I had them seated correctly.

I also went into this soldering everything to the board first. What I may do next month is gather all the pieces I need for a second try and purchase a large test board to temporarily set all components and test before committing to a board.

But any help you are willing to give is accepted. Thanks!

daVID.
Title: Re: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: Dresdon Acacin on Aug 22, 2013, 09:53 PM
Might as well set that board aside to repair once you've got it figured out.
Title: Re: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: Mandalore the Uniter on Sep 30, 2013, 03:24 PM
Just now finding this post.

Let me first suggest getting yourself a test breadboard at Radioshack.  You can save yourself a lot of time by building this on a test board (where the components are removable) and then moving it to your PCB.

Also, are you soldering these connections together or are you using an etched board?
Title: Re: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: Kebii'tra Verda on Sep 30, 2013, 05:22 PM
I've got a test board now, but the local RS is being stupid with their stock. Last time I went in there, they didn't even know what I was asking for. Even after I showed them on their own website what I was looking for, the guy was clueless. Turns out , my local store, for some unknown reason, has stopped selling the small project things like this. *smh

But, this has kind of taken a back seat right now while I get other projects worked out. I'll still get this done eventually, though.  ???

As for using a board, what you see in the first post is what I did so far that didn't work. I used a 276-168B project board for the first try with with a 276-159A board for the pots.

Looks like I'll be hitting the Bay for my parts again - and waiting 40 forevers for them to come in.  :rolleyes:

David.
Title: Re: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: Thaxos on Sep 30, 2013, 05:26 PM
Try Mouser or DigiKey instead of the Bay... Much better for electronic components.
Title: Re: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: Kebii'tra Verda on Sep 30, 2013, 05:27 PM
Try Mouser or DigiKey instead of the Bay... Much better for electronic components.

Thanks. I will!

David.
Title: Re: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: Conner Adenn on Sep 30, 2013, 08:17 PM
Since no one asked, and I really wanna know.. Where is this going in your armor? Looks like a cool idea  :D
I get a lot of parts from Tayda(taydaelectronics.com), pretty much the same product as Mouser/Digikey (and I do use both of those for other things), but cheaper. They don't have a HUGE selection like Mouser/DK, but if you plan on spitting out a lot boards where you need resistors and caps out the wazoo, $0.01 per resistor sounds a lot better than $0.10 per resistor!
Shipping isn't too bad either, I think the longest I've waited was 10 days, and since this stuff is coming from Taiwan, that's not too bad at all, I think :)
Title: Re: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: Kebii'tra Verda on Sep 30, 2013, 10:58 PM
My plan was to add it to the center diamond of my pilot kit. If I can get this to work like I want, it will be like a life meter in the center of my chest.

David.
Title: Re: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: Mandalore the Uniter on Oct 01, 2013, 08:10 AM
David, have you checked out Sparkfun.com?  They may have a project circuit that does something similar to what you want.

https://www.sparkfun.com/ (https://www.sparkfun.com/)
Title: Re: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: Dresdon Acacin on Oct 01, 2013, 11:39 AM
Uhm..a thought suddenly occured....

Exactly what do you want the LEDs to do?

If you want them like a chasing light bar, or like a stereo pitch display where it has the lights that vary by the sound?
I probbaly already have a schematic with a 4017 decade IC that may work for what you want to do...
Title: Re: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: Kebii'tra Verda on Oct 01, 2013, 12:11 PM
Uhm..a thought suddenly occured....

Exactly what do you want the LEDs to do?

If you want them like a chasing light bar, or like a stereo pitch display where it has the lights that vary by the sound?
I probbaly already have a schematic with a 4017 decade IC that may work for what you want to do...

According to the description of the system, the chip makes each LED come on separately in sequence, meaning 1 goes off before 2 comes on and on up. The addition of the SCRs is supposed to make 1 stay on until 2-10 have lit, then they all go off and repeat the sequence.


By all means! Please send the other diagram! I'd love to see it. Thanks!

David.
Title: Re: I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, but...
Post by: Dresdon Acacin on Oct 01, 2013, 04:47 PM
I think I got 'dis as the hip youngsters say...  :laugh: