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 Post-Imperial Heavy Mando

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Frostfyre


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Re: Post-Imperial Heavy Mando
« Reply #30 on: Jun 21, 2022, 03:29 PM »
Is carrying string not allowed on a kit?  Cause that's exactly as "dangerous" as this gets.  I can gear down the motor so it will take twice as long to retract and completely be rid of the possibility of whipping around if that's the concern, but otherwise this is exactly the same as just carrying string.

Not trying to argue, I just don't understand how it could possible be a safety concern.

The difference between the string and a string on a motor is that you have something that's attached to a motor and can pose more of a safety hazard than something made from a pulley lanyard that doesn't have the same distance as your gauntlet. For safety, it has to be inoperable, or at least in a way it can't fire or detract via a mechanical motorized mechanism.

And I don't think the RS who gave you the green light is fully cognizant of the rules regarding the safety clause. Either way, it's best to keep it inoperable as a greeblie so that you don't have to strip and redo it once the pre-app and app team asks about it.

EDIT: I got some clarifications on it and the retractable lanyard method, and they covered that loophole as well with it as a safety hazard.

« Last Edit: Jun 21, 2022, 05:33 PM by Frostfyre » Logged
Re: Post-Imperial Heavy Mando
« Reply #31 on: Jun 22, 2022, 03:34 AM »
Firstly, I appreciate your thoughts and know you are only trying to help and are concerned about safety.  I have submitted a question to the app team, we'll see what they say.


However, can you explain a scenario where a string on a motor could pose a safety hazard instead of just saying it's a safety hazard?  I'm still failing to see any connection between the two.

I come from a background of martial arts, so my understanding of safety might simply be different than yours, but your attempt to classify this device as unsafe as compared to literally any other prop seems invalid/non-genuine.  It would be next to impossible to hurt anyone with this prop without explicitly intending to do so, the only valid argument I could see would be stringing it up somewhere and stepping far away where someone might not see the line and walk into it by accident.  That I can agree could pose a safety issue, but thats a use case issue, not anything inherently unsafe about the device.  In the same vein, anyone can walk into you or your blaster if they're simply not looking where they are going and injure themselves just as much or more then walking into a string.  You could drop your blaster on someone by accident and injure them.  Or you could choose to pistol whip someone with your blaster and injure them, which is a use case problem, not a problem with the prop.

Can you post the wording of the safety clause?  Other motor powered devices are allowed, such as motorized range finders, which potentially could injure someone if they walked into the person and get their hair stuck in the range finder as the motor was actuating it, could knock off glasses, or it could simply hit someone in the face, but again, I'd think this would be a frivolous concern.

Obviously I'm frustrated having already finished this prop after being given approval to build it, and now being told it might not be ok.  I've been updating this thread regularly and posted my full design intentions and functionality for this prop a full 4 months ago.  I took every step to reach out and make sure this was ok before I built it, and was never warned by anyone while building it for 4 months that this would be an issue.  Needless to say a lot of time and money went into this, and I'm obviously not going to disassemble it to make it inoperable.  If it turns out after all this that it is not an approvable prop, frankly the CRLs need to be changed to reflect that and explicitly state why something like this is an issue, cause currently it just doesn't directly violate any rules.


I'd make a new gauntlet from scratch before removing the functionality I took so long to make into this one.  If it comes to that, so be it, but the next gauntlet I build will also have a motorized component.  I chose to do Mando cosplay for the gadget potential, I have no interest in making completely static props.

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Re: Post-Imperial Heavy Mando
« Reply #32 on: Jun 22, 2022, 10:57 AM »
From the safety clause, copied this morning:
---Absolutely no spring-loaded or tension-based weapons or devices will be allowed. All such devices must be rendered inoperable.---
  I'd say that a motorized grapple hook retractor operates via applying tension to a cable.

 I think the safety concern in general about this boils down to: you can't always be careful, and humans (especially young ones) are unpredictable at best.

This isn't about how safe you personally are, or your background and training, or any of that. This is about ensuring that the potential for damage, injury, and trouble is mitigated to the greatest extent possible.

 The device whips a hook (not just a string) around anywhere from kid to adult eye level if you are not fully paying attention. That has a much higher likelihood of personal injury and legal repercussions for the Club than incidental contact with a prop weapon or a rangefinder.
Also, comparing any of those accidental situations to intentionally pistol-whipping someone is a big stretch.

I understand that it's frustrating to feel like you suddenly can't do the thing you've been working so hard on, and that it feels like if this was a concern it should have been brought up sooner. Please keep in mind that everyone working for the club is a volunteer donating free time, and can't possibly see every post, and that others who may see or follow your posts might not see the same things the same way at the early stages, and mostly, that we are all humans and prone to missing things or making errors.

I'm in no way advocating for full disassembly - this thing is too dang cool to destroy permanently. My suggestion for a compromise: install a hard disconnect on the inside. Make a separate physical item that makes the connection to power that allows the motor to run - when it is in place the power is on, and when it is not, the device is inoperable. Make the item look like a piece of the gauntlet or other piece of your kit - if you can see it, it is safe. If you can't see it, double check its location before public appearances.  That would keep the gauntlet intact visually and allow you to operate it when the environment can be controlled better. It's well within your capabilities with electronics and with prop-making.

Ultimately, your best bet for a Club Official Ruling is to submit a Q&A to the application approval team, and include both the video with the whip-around (worst case) and a more controlled retraction (best case). A view of the action from above to show the full range that the hook might travel would be helpful. If the application team okays it (either as-is or with a hard disconnect ) then you are golden. If not, well, then at least you have an official direction at the Club level, and not from a bunch of randos like me.

Arkham


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Re: Post-Imperial Heavy Mando
« Reply #33 on: Jun 22, 2022, 11:15 AM »
However, can you explain a scenario where a string on a motor could pose a safety hazard instead of just saying it's a safety hazard?  I'm still failing to see any connection between the two.

I gave examples in my previous comment:

While it is not a projectile, there is a chance of injury due to being a trip hazard, the ability to catch and snag on a con-goer, or (if it is high enough) even clothes-lining a child or other person. For these reason, it may not be allowed. I would hate for you to go through everything and then have to rework this. Better safe than sorry.

However, if you would like me to go into more detail, I can. I'll use examples in a con based setting, but these could apply elsewhere: as well
  • While you are retracting the cable it catches on the shoelace of a child walking by causing them to trip and fall onto the concrete floor.
  • The cable gets caught on a table display and becomes taunt. A child, or other person, walks by not seeing the barely visible line and gets cloths-lined by it.
  • While retracting the runs across someone's exposed skin, giving them a rope burn or cutting into their skin.
  • The weight on the end of your cable bounces off something while retracting and whips out hitting someone.
  • The cable unwinds while you are unaware, dragging behind you on the floor, creating a trip or snag hazard.
  • Moving your arm while using the gauntlet while retracting causes the weighed end to sling around and hitting someone.

These are just some of the reasons that I can think of. Can you see how any of these could result in the injury of a child?

It would be next to impossible to hurt anyone with this prop without explicitly intending to do so, the only valid argument I could see would be stringing it up somewhere and stepping far away where someone might not see the line and walk into it by accident.  That I can agree could pose a safety issue, but thats a use case issue, not anything inherently unsafe about the device.

There is nothing inherently unsafe about a Battle axe. But once you choose to carry or use it, it becomes unsafe. Therefore it is a "use case" where it becomes an issue. You answered your own question.

Other motor powered devices are allowed, such as motorized range finders, which potentially could injure someone if they walked into the person and get their hair stuck in the range finder as the motor was actuating it, could knock off glasses, or it could simply hit someone in the face, but again, I'd think this would be a frivolous concern.

This is a fairly ridiculous example. You're trying to associate the injury that a motorized rangefinder could do, if being operated at the same time that someone walks into you. You are trying to equate injury from the motor while dismissing the injury from some slamming into hard enough for their head to move far enough past your shoulder to get their hair or glasses close to your rangefinder.

In the same vein, anyone can walk into you or your blaster if they're simply not looking where they are going and injure themselves just as much or more then walking into a string.  You could drop your blaster on someone by accident and injure them.  Or you could choose to pistol whip someone with your blaster and injure them, which is a use case problem, not a problem with the prop.

Another unbelievable argument. The "I can punch someone, but I'm still allowed to have hands" argument. Yes, people can get accidentally hurt by things. It happens. Our goal is to minimize these cases to the best of our ability. This is the reason that spikes and sharp protrusions are not allowed, or high criticized or modified.

We are trying to keep ourselves and those around us as safe as possible. For this reason, when the App Team sees things that may not do so, they flag them as un-approvable.

If it comes to that, so be it, but the next gauntlet I build will also have a motorized component.  I chose to do Mando cosplay for the gadget potential, I have no interest in making completely static props.

As long as they are safe and approvable, go for it! Just remember this group is for costuming and not items much adhere to the CRLs (and common sense).

« Last Edit: Jun 22, 2022, 11:30 AM by Arkham » Logged
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Re: Post-Imperial Heavy Mando
« Reply #34 on: Jun 22, 2022, 12:24 PM »
I'd go with Second Son's suggestion of installing a hard disconnect, or unplugging or removing the battery while attending public events or other crowded situations.  I would also look at ways to lock in the hook so it can't accidentally deploy and spool out (accounting for worst case scenario).  Definitely keep the motorized grapple for its cool factor and ability to show off in appropriate and safe situations.

I totally get the gadget factor!  That excites me too, even though my technological skills are a lower level than yours.

The safety clause is written and enforced the way it is because while most of us can be responsible and safe even while operating potentially dangerous props and gear, there's always the "Hold my beer and watch this" guy who would get us, as a group, kicked out of events and banned from future attendance (if not worse).  We made the rule to put the brakes on that guy, and enforce the rule fairly and evenly for everyone.  It means that one of the coolest ideas I have for one of my armor builds is also not allowed.

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Re: Post-Imperial Heavy Mando
« Reply #35 on: Jun 24, 2022, 02:34 PM »


  Just found this thread...

 Safety and rules aside.

HOLY COW.. the amount of work and skill youve put into all this is pretty amazing! this might just be my new favoret build! ( i also want to steal/pick your brain on so many of these parts and builds )

 I know this doesnt add alot to the thread.. but i just found it.. and wanted to say thank you for sharing and inspiring.

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Re: Post-Imperial Heavy Mando
« Reply #36 on: Jun 27, 2022, 09:00 PM »
...

However, if you would like me to go into more detail, I can. I'll use examples in a con based setting, but these could apply elsewhere: as well
  • While you are retracting the cable it catches on the shoelace of a child walking by causing them to trip and fall onto the concrete floor.
  • The cable gets caught on a table display and becomes taunt. A child, or other person, walks by not seeing the barely visible line and gets cloths-lined by it.
  • While retracting the runs across someone's exposed skin, giving them a rope burn or cutting into their skin.
  • The weight on the end of your cable bounces off something while retracting and whips out hitting someone.
  • The cable unwinds while you are unaware, dragging behind you on the floor, creating a trip or snag hazard.
  • Moving your arm while using the gauntlet while retracting causes the weighed end to sling around and hitting someone.

These are just some of the reasons that I can think of. Can you see how any of these could result in the injury of a child?


I don't want to belabor the point here, as I'm obviously going to be overruled, but let me offer my thoughts to your comments.  The first two points are very unlikely but valid, and I can certainly see why that would be a safety issue and would agree.  The other examples are all as "ridiculous" as the ones I gave for miss-use of other props, getting hit with a 5 gram edgeless plastic toy will cause no more damage then walking into someone unaware.  All the examples I gave are just as likely, if not more so, then yours.  I'm sure you'd have no way of knowing that without some first hand experience with the prop, which I can't blame you for, but I would protest that you're being rather condescending where as I am simply searching for knowledge and understanding.

You say there's nothing inherently dangerous about a battle axe, but you do in fact let people carry battle axe and other large melee weapons, so I'm just trying to understand how you define the difference.

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