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 A couple of questions.

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Tramp Graphics


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Re: A couple of questions.
« Reply #30 on: Dec 20, 2020, 05:08 AM »
Vhonte Tervho is no longer Canon, but even when she was, she still had a vest.  It just matches her flightsuit.


I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment of her outfit. I own a copy of that issue and have scrutinized those images of her, and there is no vest. Thereís no demarcation or change in thickness at her belt or at the shoulders, showing a vest over her flight suit, nor is there even any unbroken line across her abdomen suggesting a vest worn over her bodysuit. There are only typical seams at the shoulders and down the sides where the stitching is in a one piece body stocking, where the parts were sewn together, with smooth lines and curves, and wrinkles where her todo twists. This is especially clear in this image:


Not even her action figure (also used for Arab Bralor) included a vest in the sculpt:



There is no vest. Her armor is attached directly to her flight suit.

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Both Paz and the Armorer have vests, they are just not the same type as the classic ones for Boba or Jango.  Paz, in particular, is ďsleevelessĒ, or without shoulder bells.

I just looked at a few images of Paz Viszlaís costume, and heís not wearing a sleeveless vest. Just the opposite. Itís a dark grey quarter sleeve shirt over a light grey padded suit. Whether thatís considered a ďvestĒ is a matter of semantics. Hereís an image:


The Armorer too appears to possibly be wearing two shirts, a quarter sleeved one over a long sleeved one, or simply a double sleeved shirt.



I donít see any vests on either of them. Then thereís Vera Beroya from the AoR module Friends Like These. She too lacks a vest. She wears a full wrap-around cuirass thatís connected front and back, with a separate ab plate below it attached to her suit.



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Boba...  well, letís wait till after the new year; give the CRL Team time to work out wether or not to allow certain aspects to be used in custom builds.

I hope so. FYI, this was my first armor made last year:



My original concept was to use my duster as my vest. Like I said, Iím an artist, I like to think outside the box, and I like repurposing even my everyday clothes in my costumes.  :8):

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The Rebels Grunt isnít wearing a padded vest.  And Sabine.  Wearing her plates the same way she does is only applicable for HER SPECIFIC CHARACTER.  Anyone wanting to use her plates in a custom build needs an ab plate, collar, and a vest.
I also disagree on the grunt. The image looks to me to show a definite thickness with a sharp separation running vertically up his side showing the ďvestĒ to be much thicker and more rigid than cloth or soft leather. To be fair, that could be a shadow of his arm.

Sabineís mother, as well, does not wear a vest. This is clear in this image:


In fact, based upon other images of her, her outer garment appears to be a full-sleeved, mid-thigh length tunic; itís not a ďvestĒ at all. The skirting is attached to the top. It looks to be all a single garment, not a vest, loin cloth and Kama.

My point is that we see multiple Mandalorians, in both canon and Legends, who donít wear a flack vest. Sabine isnít the only one, nor is she the first.  Sheís just the most blatantly obvious one.

Ideally, I prefer the clean look of a full cuirass,  buckled at the sides, without a vest underneath, or with my duster underneath,  but, failing that, there is no restriction on how thick, what style, or from what materials a Ďflack vestĒ has to be made, according to the CRLs. Given that choice, I prefer the look of a proper military style futuristic tactical  ďKevlarĒ flack vest, rather than just a layer of heavy cloth or leather. 

However,  Iím not about to shell out several hundred dollars on a real MOLLE/tactical vest, or a real Kevlar bulletproof vest, that itself would need further modifications,  when I can make my own custom design ďsci fi tactical vestĒ from foam. So any vest I make would be along these lines in solid black:









In other words, actual semi-soft body armor.

One thing about most Star Wars ďarmorĒ, It isnít functional armor and provides little to no protection, not even hard armors, such as Stormtrooper armor. Beskarígam is really the only armor in canon that really does what itís designed to do: prevent damage. I want something that looks like it actually provides protection (if it were real) not simply something to hang some plates on.

Ideally, Iíd rather turn my plates into my vest, a full cuirass, not independent plates just stuck onto cloth, and since the CRLs do allow straps to be used to secure the armor, vest or no, Iím sticking with that full cuirass held together with webbing between the plates and secured at the sides. That allows me to wear it with or without a vest or other ďouter garmentĒ between my cuirass and my BDUs.

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Itís good you know ABS, as that is an approved material.  You should also know that at the thickness needed for making the armor, heat warping is not as big a risk. Iíve helped build a friend or twoís TK, and my wifeís kit is ABS.
Yep, though mostly in the form of detail pieces and ABS angle and I beams. Mostly I worked with sheet styrene, and even then, only up to a thickness of maybe 2mm.

The reason why most modern kits are reminiscent of Jango and Boba is because they are the very definition of a modern kit. However youíd be pretty hard pressed to confuse my kit or many many other kits with either Jango or Boba.

The CRLs are there and thatís what we all have to follow thereís no going around them. And until they are updated it doesnít matter what we see in shows like The Mandalorian, if something violates the CRLs then it simply can not be on an approved kit.

There are many options to customize however, for instance. If you want a thicker more padded vest thatís totally ok, Iíve seen that look accomplished by adding quilting to the vest (Bobaís vest is like this). If you want all your torso armor attached by strapping thatís ok too, we have someone in our clan using that method. However that strapping must meet certain criteria.
The fact remains if you want to build a modern kit a flack vest is specifically called out in the CRLs.

Remember we all want to help you become official.


I understand that. Iím simply pointing out that there are multiple different canon and Legends Mandalorians who break even that one CRL regarding the vests, in particular. Sabine Wren isnít the only one, and not even the first.
And, while the Fettís are certainly the ďprototypicalĒ iconic look, theirs is certainly not the ďonlyĒ look nor even the most common any more. Shouldnít the CRLs take that into account? 

And some of the restrictions, such as ďno back pocketsĒ rule, donít make sense from a practical perspective, as a military veteran. As a soldier, you want pockets. Pockets are a good thing, and very useful. You canít carry everything on a utility belt or LBE. This is especially true of military style pockets with a flap cover, (below) as opposed to those found on jeans, I can understand those being forbidden.



Just because neither of the Fettís had back pockets does not mean that no Mandalorian  could, or would, have them.

My understanding of the criteria is that any strapping cannot be made of elastic unless itís hidden completely under the flight suit (except at the knee and the thong securing the cod piece between the legs), but that nylon or leather straps can be exposed. The straps used to secure my current cuirass together is nylon webbing buckled at the sides. That does meet that criteria. So whether people can see the straps between the plates isnít an issue.

Like I said, my top priority is to create a badass suit of Beskarígam that fits my vision, even if it doesnít meet the criteria for official membership. If that does coincide with the CRLs, so much the better, but itís not absolutely necessary right off the bat, especially since, without a car, my chances of trooping on a regular basis, especially outside of Buffalo, is slim to nonexistent, for the foreseeable future. So having something that looks badass for cosplay and Halloween at reasonable cost is of higher priority. Iíve already spent more than expected on this kit as it is, and a good chunk of that was in soft goods, and tools, including a brand new airbrush and air compressor. So, I want to get the most use out of my current kit as possible before upgrading to a new kit, even if itís not up to standards for approval yet. I want to get my moneyís worth.

« Last Edit: Dec 20, 2020, 05:36 AM by Tramp Graphics » Logged

Straka Zulu


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Re: A couple of questions.
« Reply #31 on: Dec 20, 2020, 10:49 AM »
Direct from the CRLís:
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Armor/flak vest:
Armor/flak vest must be worn under armor plates including Legacy plates
MOLLE/TAC and paintball style vests may be used without any modification. However, the armor must be of a canon or custom style that completely covers the vest. If the vest is visible, it must be modified sufficiently to no longer appear as a store bought MOLLE/TAC vest.
Vests may be traditional Boba/Jango-style or custom style. If you have a question about your vest, please see the App Team Q&A
Ensure vest is properly fitted/tailored to you. Baggy and oversized vests are not acceptable. Zipper pull tabs and velcro must be completely hidden from sight.
The vest must be comprised of solid color block(s). No printed fabric may be used as part of a vest.

These things are non-negotiable.  Not to be a chakaar about it, but I get the feeling that youíre arguing just to argue. 

Paz and the Armorer both have vests.  They are their short sleeved ďshirtĒ piece.

Vera Beroya...  Canít tell from that single image.  But, just like with Vhonte, itís artwork, simplified for ease of printing at a lower cost.  You would see that a lot from the old Marvel and Dark Horse comics.   Hell, you even see it NOW in comics.  Iím also an artist.  Shortcuts are the name of the game, especially if it saves your producer money. 

Iíve done all I can to help you.  What you do with this information is up to you. I wish you the best of luck.


« Last Edit: Dec 20, 2020, 10:54 AM by Straka Zulu » Logged
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Sylvilagus


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Re: A couple of questions.
« Reply #32 on: Dec 20, 2020, 11:43 AM »
You also might want to consider the ramifications of encasing your entire torso in a fitted tube made of non-breathable materials like foam and rubber. A flight suit and flak vest made of heavyweight cotton, plus whatever basics you have on, plus a layer of EVA foam, plus a layer of rubber, plus your plates stuck to the front... that's going to be rough.

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Kurz


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Re: A couple of questions.
« Reply #33 on: Dec 20, 2020, 01:23 PM »
However,  Iím not about to shell out several hundred dollars on a real MOLLE/tactical vest, or a real Kevlar bulletproof vest, that itself would need further modifications,  when I can make my own custom design ďsci fi tactical vestĒ from foam. So any vest I make would be along these lines in solid black:
Well, that's odd. As a veteran, you should know that plate carriers and vests can be found pretty cheap (like 20/30$) if you don't need quality (and with that I mean you don't need to use them in real combat). Chinese airsoft stuff is cheap, will not stand a firefight but it looks real. And second: an EVA vest will not be approved.

And some of the restrictions, such as ďno back pocketsĒ rule, donít make sense from a practical perspective, as a military veteran. As a soldier, you want pockets. Pockets are a good thing, and very useful. You canít carry everything on a utility belt or LBE. This is especially true of military style pockets with a flap cover, (below) as opposed to those found on jeans, I can understand those being forbidden.

As a 12 years active duty (don't know why you used the bold) I can assure you I never used back pockets as a precise choice and for a good reason (I always use them in civilian clothes).

And it's useless arguing anyway:
Per CRLs:
No back pockets
No foam
Vest is mandatory for custom kits

As Straka Zulu said, CRLs aren't meant to be negotiable, they are meant to be followed.

Like I said, my top priority is to create a badass suit of Beskarígam that fits my vision, even if it doesnít meet the criteria for official membership. If that does coincide with the CRLs, so much the better, but itís not absolutely necessary right off the bat, especially since, without a car, my chances of trooping on a regular basis, especially outside of Buffalo, is slim to nonexistent, for the foreseeable future.
If this is the case, I suggest you to move to the non-mandalorian and unofficial costumes. Here people will try to help you make a kit for your official membership. If you don't want that, the unofficial costumes section would be a great place where you can unleash your wildest creativity.

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Tramp Graphics


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Re: A couple of questions.
« Reply #34 on: Dec 20, 2020, 03:29 PM »
Direct from the CRLís:
These things are non-negotiable.  Not to be a chakaar about it, but I get the feeling that youíre arguing just to argue. 

Paz and the Armorer both have vests.  They are their short sleeved ďshirtĒ piece.

Vera Beroya...  Canít tell from that single image.  But, just like with Vhonte, itís artwork, simplified for ease of printing at a lower cost.  You would see that a lot from the old Marvel and Dark Horse comics.   Hell, you even see it NOW in comics.  Iím also an artist.  Shortcuts are the name of the game, especially if it saves your producer money. 

Iíve done all I can to help you.  What you do with this information is up to you. I wish you the best of luck.


No, Iím not arguing just to argue. Quite the opposite. Iím try to get an understanding of the reasons behind the CRLs as well as point out some key conflicts with them and multiple canon and Legends characters who deviate from them. It was mentioned in this thread: http://mandalorianmercs.org/forum/index.php?topic=197251.0 that it requires multiple examples of characters in the original source materials who deviate from a specific requirement before you change the CRLs. As such, I am bringing these to your attention as further canon and Legends examples, among the others named that donít wear vest gambesons under their armor plates for further review when it next comes time to update the CRLs.

 We have at least four examples of canon or Legends characters who donít wear vests. Two of them attach their armor directly to their flight suits, one wears a full front and back clam-shell cuirass, and one wears a full-sleeved, thigh length gambeson instead of a vest.

Paz Viszla and the Armorer are debatable, because both Bobaís and Jangoís flight suits also have those quarter sleeves built in. So Itís possible that this is the case with Viszla and the Armorer.  Without physically scrutinizing the original costumes in person, it could go one way or another.

There are other examples of other parts of the CRLs that you also might want to review. This image here shows multiple examples of ďModern eraĒ Mandalorians without cod pieces or any other groin cover, and only a single waist item.

. The image comes from the Rebels episode Mission to Mandalore.

In fact, not a single Mandalorian in that line has any groin coverings. And there are nine different Mandalorians in this  shot alone.

The image also shows another character (the unnamed female in white armor on a dark grey flight suit next to Ezra Bridger on the opposite side from Sabine Wren) who also has her breast and ab plates attached directly to her flight suit with no vest in between. There is a third Mandalorian female further in the distance in that shot who appears to wear an identical suit as the one I just mentioned. If thatís the case, and sheís the exact same character model, then that makes at least six Mandalorian characters who do not wear vests under their plates.

So, Iím not asking you for an exception, just for my sake. Iím bringing these examples up as evidence for official review for potential future changes to the CRLs overall, based upon the multiple repeated precedents set by these and other characters.

Yes, I agree that CRLs should be followed. However, when some of those CRLs no longer match up with multiple examples of characters we see in the source materials, then it might be time to review and potentially revise them further based upon that new evidence.

The current CRLs for Modern Mandalorian costumes is based almost entirely on the Fetts, obviously since they were the template from which all other Mandalorian designs originated. However, we now have several completely different Mandalorian characters, often with armor and soft goods radically different from the Fettís, and often lacking one or more of the ďiconic elementsĒ of those two suits, with several of them foregoing the same required pieces of kit (vests, groin covers, potentially second waste items, etc), or multiple other characters who add items which are currently forbidden (Tarre Vizsla, Ursa Wren and now Boba Fett, as of chapter fifteen of The Mandalorian) as to make a serious review and reconsideration of some of those required elements necessary.
Thatís what Iím saying. Thatís all Iím getting at. Here is the evidence. Please bring it up for review with the rest of your review board when you guys review and update the CRLs next.

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Kurz


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Re: A couple of questions.
« Reply #35 on: Dec 20, 2020, 07:22 PM »
No, Iím not arguing just to argue. Quite the opposite. Iím try to get an understanding of the reasons behind the CRLs as well as point out some key conflicts with them and multiple canon and Legends characters who deviate from them. It was mentioned in this thread:
CRLs don't conflict. Those are for custom kits. Want to build a canon kit with no vest and no cod? Go for it. Want to build a custom? Follow the CRLs for custom kits.

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Re: A couple of questions.
« Reply #36 on: Dec 20, 2020, 07:48 PM »
CRLs don't conflict. Those are for custom kits. Want to build a canon kit with no vest and no cod? Go for it. Want to build a custom? Follow the CRLs for custom kits.
Thatís not what I mean. To quote:

It still falls under the ďweíve only seen it on a SINGLE Canon CharacterĒ.

Until we see others doing it in the series, it would only be allowed for Bobaís appearance in TMS.

That was from Straka Zulu himself in the other thread I mentioned.
 He said that changes to the custom character CRLs only happen when we see multiple ďcanonĒ characters (including Legends ones as well because the CRLs for canon characters still include them as well) from the source materials  who deviate from them as well, not just a single individual. So, if theyíre going to be reviewing the CRLs after the holidays, then now is the time for giving them examples of multiple canon characters who do fall outside of a given requirement so that such potential changes can at least be reviewed by the approval team board members.

For the record, I donít care about the cod piece. I have one included in my kit already, and had always planned on including one for this kit. Itís simply something I noticed in that shot and brought it to his attention.

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jett drexel


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Re: A couple of questions.
« Reply #37 on: Dec 21, 2020, 05:45 AM »
Is there actually any point to all this arguing?........ it' all seems kinda moot when you have no intention of actually building anything approvable anyway.

« Last Edit: Dec 21, 2020, 08:25 AM by jett drexel » Logged

Tramp Graphics


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Re: A couple of questions.
« Reply #38 on: Dec 21, 2020, 01:44 PM »
Is there actually any point to all this arguing?........ it' all seems kinda moot when you have no intention of actually building anything approvable anyway.

Not true. Eventually, I do intend to get a suit up to CRL standards, but itís simply not the top priority at this moment. The first step is to get a good working prototype I can use for general cosplay locally, as well as to work out the kinks in my design, see where I want to make changes and improvements, etc. before trying to get approval.

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Kurz


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Re: A couple of questions.
« Reply #39 on: Dec 21, 2020, 01:50 PM »
Then (again) it might be a good idea if you move your thread to non-mandalorian and unofficial costumes and come back here when you decide to follow the CRLs.

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Re: A couple of questions.
« Reply #40 on: Dec 22, 2020, 12:49 PM »
If you think the CRLs need to be changed, you're going to need to be a full member before you have any say in them...

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She told me never venture out among the asteroids
But I did, I did, I did
And she said that the Milky Way was something to avoid
And I did, I did, I did
She said that Venus was too hot and Saturn not much fun
Bug-eyed monsters tended to be just a trifle dumb
She said I'd need a blaster and I'd need a freezer-gun
And I did, I did, I did...

Tramp Graphics


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Re: A couple of questions.
« Reply #41 on: Dec 23, 2020, 02:16 PM »
Here are some concept renders of my planned kit. The first is based mostly on how it exists now, but with a completed paint job. The second is a potential upgrade to make it more in line with the CRLs with the inclusion of a vest and new boots (which I would need to buy).




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Kurshi BeJahaal


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Re: A couple of questions.
« Reply #42 on: Dec 23, 2020, 09:01 PM »
I do like both of those concepts!

One workaround for your boots is to go the route of spats or leather gaiters to cover the laces. I've seen it turn out pretty nicely on some kits!

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Tramp Graphics


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Re: A couple of questions.
« Reply #43 on: Dec 23, 2020, 09:14 PM »
I do like both of those concepts!

One workaround for your boots is to go the route of spats or leather gaiters to cover the laces. I've seen it turn out pretty nicely on some kits!
yeah, I know, but I really donít like Spats. Even if I went with shin guards, I would not wear spats.

Iím working on a 3D model of a custom Post Imp cuirass, based loosely off Din Djarinís Beskar plate, that Iím going to rig for DAZ as well, for a potential possible build instead of this, but it depends upon how it turns out and if I can articulate the pectoral plates with hinges. The Post Imp Beskar chest is supposed to be a single piece chest plate, but if allowed, (and if I can figure out the engineering to allow for the steel heart, I might go with that. Either way, I want it for 3D renders anyway.

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