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 Aquatic Post-Imp Build- APPROVED-Naia Toa

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Re: Aquatic Post-Imp Build
« Reply #15 on: Dec 16, 2021, 05:32 PM »
Thanks for the heads up.  I read the CRLs a bunch when I designed this and since the Post-Imp CRLs and the Modern CRLs said nearly the same exact thing (including the list of acceptable closure methods) for the vest and the strapping portion of the CRLs (where the acceptable uses for elastic are listed and are the same just with different wording). I thought I should be good since my current vest passed and those sections are practically identical.  It also says in the CRL that the traditional vest (aka modern style) is approvable for post-imp so my approved custom (a little modification from my modern style vest was made to better fit the post-imp aesthetic but I could just make the same vest and it should be approved based off that statement in the CRLs) should also translate, yes?  Or is my logic flawed?

Per the CRLs:
Quote
Elastic strapping must be concealed EXCEPT on knees, elbows, and “Boba Thongs” where they must be color matched to flight suit.

My guess is that your original kit it was not obvious that it was elastic. In this vest, you can clearly see that it is.

You could always go with a leather, cotton, or nylon strap for the visible section that is attached to elastic under the vest. That way you would still have some stretch without the visible elastic.

*FYI your Ruus'alor or app team may require you to modify your existing vest if it has exposed elastic.

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Re: Aquatic Post-Imp Build
« Reply #16 on: Dec 17, 2021, 12:23 PM »
Yup, sometimes things like elastic get "passed" since the app team is still human.

Just wanted to weigh in here so you dont happen to get bit by something that is an otherwise incredible build.

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Re: Aquatic Post-Imp Build
« Reply #17 on: Dec 17, 2021, 04:34 PM »
Per the CRLs:
Elastic strapping must be concealed EXCEPT on knees, elbows, and “Boba Thongs” where they must be color matched to flight suit.

So now I am more confused then before.  You're quoting the section of the CRLs that is about armor strapping.  Not related to vests at all.  So not sure how that is supposed to translate.  Additionally the quoted section is not all the places it is a allowed, as it says in the point directly above that it may also be used on the boot armor.  Again though, this entire section of the CRLs is in relation to strapping armor on, not vest closure methods.  In fact, elastic is not mentioned at all in relation to vests.  Unless your saying that what is acceptable in one section can be used in another section?  Because if that's the case, that means I can use a zipper to hold my armor on as long as I cover the pull tab or even lace them on, since that is an approved method listed in the vest section.  (A ridiculous example but hopefully it gets my point across). 


My guess is that your original kit it was not obvious that it was elastic. In this vest, you can clearly see that it is.


On my first kit it is color matched perfectly to my vest, and did I mention that I am using top quality elastic.  It looks like nylon webbing when it isn't stretched out.
Also using elastic as a closure method on vests has been on approved kits since 2010.  Did I dive that deep into the forums? Yes, yes I did.  Another vest made with elastic closures and bathing suit clips is on the female armor resource thread. (Started in 2016 with an attempted revamp in 2018 due to the whole Photobucket fiasco.)  I read a lot of these but with all the dead links I was only able make use of some of the information.

http://mandalorianmercs.org/forum/index.php?topic=113742.0

And the one kit that I personally bookmarked and drew a bunch of inspiration from was this build.   Amazing craftmanship and beautiful use of colors.

http://mandalorianmercs.org/forum/index.php?topic=28072.0

So, historically speaking the Mercs as a group have approved vests with elastic side closures, pretty much since the inception of the club.  And since it is not directly addressed in the vest section, this led to the obvious conclusion that this was one of those items that could only be approved on a case by case basis.  As is the way with all things not directly addressed in the CRLs. 


You could always go with a leather, cotton, or nylon strap for the visible section that is attached to elastic under the vest. That way you would still have some stretch without the visible elastic.


None of those items have any stretch whatsoever, so I still end up with a bit of a scrunchy look which I am trying to avoid.  I appreciate the ideas though.  Does give me an idea about a possible different method to hide the closures.  Stay tuned while I work that idea out.


*FYI your Ruus'alor or app team may require you to modify your existing vest if it has exposed elastic.

Did you read my whole post?  I am currently fulfilling the duties of the Ruus'alor best I can, since our Ruus'alor Sol'yce is no longer with us.  Hence the reason I am beating this topic with a stick. I want to hear all the answers to all the possible arguments I can throw at you guys so that I have answers for my foundlings/recruits when they ask me.  Also, my current vest has already been modified since base approval, as in two brigades worth of alterations to the entire kit.


Yup, sometimes things like elastic get "passed" since the app team is still human.

Just wanted to weigh in here so you dont happen to get bit by something that is an otherwise incredible build.

I appreciate you looking out for me. 

I didn't think it was an accident that my first kit was passed with the elastic because, as I mentioned above, elastic closures on vests have been on approved kits as far back as 2010.  I would have made different choices for the first kit if I hadn't already seen it on multiple approved kits.  Unfortunately I only bookmarked the one but I can think of at lest three others that I found that were approved with high quality elastic that either blended or contrasted perfectly with their kits.


I knew this vest would be pushing the line since the nylon stretch webbing doesn't color match with the side panels or the flightsuit (it does match the central panel and contrasts nicely with the side panels).  I will be figuring out a cover method for them for this kit. 

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Re: Aquatic Post-Imp Build
« Reply #18 on: Dec 17, 2021, 05:54 PM »
So now I am more confused then before.  You're quoting the section of the CRLs that is about armor strapping.  Not related to vests at all.  So not sure how that is supposed to translate.  Additionally the quoted section is not all the places it is a allowed, as it says in the point directly above that it may also be used on the boot armor.  Again though, this entire section of the CRLs is in relation to strapping armor on, not vest closure methods.  In fact, elastic is not mentioned at all in relation to vests.  Unless your saying that what is acceptable in one section can be used in another section?  Because if that's the case, that means I can use a zipper to hold my armor on as long as I cover the pull tab or even lace them on, since that is an approved method listed in the vest section.  (A ridiculous example but hopefully it gets my point across). 

On my first kit it is color matched perfectly to my vest, and did I mention that I am using top quality elastic.  It looks like nylon webbing when it isn't stretched out.
Also using elastic as a closure method on vests has been on approved kits since 2010.  Did I dive that deep into the forums? Yes, yes I did.  Another vest made with elastic closures and bathing suit clips is on the female armor resource thread. (Started in 2016 with an attempted revamp in 2018 due to the whole Photobucket fiasco.)  I read a lot of these but with all the dead links I was only able make use of some of the information.

Yes, you can use a zipper to hold on you armor if you wanted to.

As for the elastic, while the section of the CRLs I quoted was indeed for armor, it is also states the ONLY places that elastic is allowed to be shown on a kit. I appreciate that you have gotten your kit approved this way, the CRLs are ever changing and these rules may not have been in place in 2010. Kits built today will need to follow the current CRLs. When those get updated, then those will be the new CRLs. There is no grandfathering unless otherwise noted.

What is does say is allowable for vest closures is:
Quote
Laces, zippers, parachute buckles, velcro and cloth or leather strapping are all acceptable methods of closure.

Elastic is not listed as an acceptable closure type.

None of those items have any stretch whatsoever, so I still end up with a bit of a scrunchy look which I am trying to avoid.  I appreciate the ideas though.  Does give me an idea about a possible different method to hide the closures.  Stay tuned while I work that idea out.

My suggestion was to have a leather strap with elastic attached to each end. The leather would be the only visible part, and the elastic would be under your vest material. This would still give you some stretch, while only showing the leather portion.

Did you read my whole post?  I am currently fulfilling the duties of the Ruus'alor best I can, since our Ruus'alor Sol'yce is no longer with us.  Hence the reason I am beating this topic with a stick. I want to hear all the answers to all the possible arguments I can throw at you guys so that I have answers for my foundlings/recruits when they ask me.  Also, my current vest has already been modified since base approval, as in two brigades worth of alterations to the entire kit.

I am a member of the Education team and have been training Ruus'alore and Ruus'alor Sol'yce for about 3 years now. I mention this in regard to your elastic because it is one of the things they are trained to be on the look out for.

My suggestion to you would be to reach out to both your Regional Ruus'sol and use the App Team Q&A to have them weigh in on the answer. This way you can give you recruits the best information.

As to your modification for brigades; Again, it is not always clear to see in a photo that it is elastic and not nylon strapping. That doesn't make it approvable. If a Ruus or App Team member reviewed your kit in person, they would most likely call it out as a CRL violation.

Just because it was not caught, does not make it CRL compliant.

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Re: Aquatic Post-Imp Build
« Reply #19 on: Dec 17, 2021, 06:56 PM »
posting here to comment later! I may have some insight with being Q+A Director and App Team

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Re: Aquatic Post-Imp Build
« Reply #20 on: Dec 18, 2021, 04:37 PM »
posting here to comment later! I may have some insight with being Q+A Director and App Team

Welcome to my madness!  ;)  Looking forward to hearing from you.

As for the elastic, while the section of the CRLs I quoted was indeed for armor, it is also states the ONLY places that elastic is allowed to be shown on a kit. I appreciate that you have gotten your kit approved this way, the CRLs are ever changing and these rules may not have been in place in 2010. Kits built today will need to follow the current CRLs. When those get updated, then those will be the new CRLs. There is no grandfathering unless otherwise noted.

Noted  :like:  I was still in the build process when the most recent update was applied to the CRLs so I have already gone through changing elements to meet the updated CRLs.

Elastic is not listed as an acceptable closure type.

True.  It's also not listed as being unapprovable.  So question here, my OM vest has chain mail as the side closures (part of my brigades upgrades) which is not a listed approvable closure method but has been approved by the Brigades app team and my Ruus' before we lost him, does that take it out of compliance?  Because that is probably my second favorite aspect of my active kit and I would rather retire it before replacing it.

My suggestion was to have a leather strap with elastic attached to each end. The leather would be the only visible part, and the elastic would be under your vest material. This would still give you some stretch, while only showing the leather portion.

I definitely didn't understand your suggestion the first time.  I think I've got it now.  My thought was something more like this (that's just a leather scrap I put on top to give the idea).



My thought was that it covers the majority of the elastic but should still give me enough stretch to avoid an attack.  I do not handle restrictive pressure on my ribs well.  And if anyone other then a Ruus' or app team member notices the tiny bit of elastic showing, they are staring too long somewhere they shouldn't be.  I also don't walk around with my arms up so it would be concealed most of the time in general.  What do you think?

I'm totally down to keep brainstorming this, and if I end up with grey scrunchies so be it.

Since the elastic is sewn in-between the fabric layers and the quilting was done on top of it, it would be faster to just remake the vest then to try and move it.

I am a member of the Education team and have been training Ruus'alore and Ruus'alor Sol'yce for about 3 years now. I mention this in regard to your elastic because it is one of the things they are trained to be on the look out for.

My suggestion to you would be to reach out to both your Regional Ruus'sol and use the App Team Q&A to have them weigh in on the answer. This way you can give you recruits the best information.

Wouldn't happen to be interested in training another would ya? 

I have actually already reached out the Ruus'alor and Ruus'alror Sol'yce in the surrounding clans (I've got three so far that are cool with me shooting them questions) so I am currently building a network of information.  I have also run into an apps team member who gave me the go ahead to bounce stuff that way.  (While trooping, in my kit).  Usually I can find the answers I need in the Q & A section without having to actually ask the question and add to the apps teams workload, or one of the other Ruus' know the answer.   I just didn't realize this was a question I needed to ask.  I had seen it on approved kits and it met my physical and psychological needs.  It wasn't directly address in the CRLs in relationship to vests, so why would I question what appeared to be an already established acceptable method?

The most frustrating part of this is that I spent a year building and then the last year trooping and I never knew this.  Please tell me there is hand book or pamphlet or something for the Ruus'alor Sol'yce position, because I do not want to be the reason someone doesn't get approved.

And while we're still on the topic of elastic.  I was planning on building in some elastic relief panels into my spats/half chaps to improve the fit and help them stay in place.  It would look something like this.



I had planned to put them in the back/slightly toward the inside of the calf so they wouldn't be easily seen but in the area where the stretch would be the most beneficial.  Aka, where all my equestrian half chaps have elastic.  But it does leave little slivers of elastic visible.  Its probably 1/5" maybe less.  I'm guessing here.  Is that also going to be a problem?  It greatly improves the fit and comfort for half chaps to have them there, but I can design without them, it just won't look quite as nicely fitted.  I was also thinking of running a zipper up the back seam but if I can't put the elastic in that will have to change because that is a fight I am not interested in every time I kit up.

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Re: Aquatic Post-Imp Build
« Reply #21 on: Dec 19, 2021, 04:19 PM »
Armor Construction Update:

I got some bondo into the seams where the fins join into the shoulder and sanded it down.



Then I put a second layer of filler to help smooth out the areas where I fiberglassed and on top of the Bondo to help get a smoother finish.  I have found that combining these two gives me the finish I am looking for.  I also got the filler on the shoulder straps.



Once they dry they'll be sanded down and depending on how smooth they are I'll either put a layer of primer on, or another layer of filler.

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Re: Aquatic Post-Imp Build
« Reply #22 on: Dec 20, 2021, 02:42 PM »
Plates look nice! I hope everything with the vest works out

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Re: Aquatic Post-Imp Build
« Reply #23 on: Dec 24, 2021, 08:10 PM »
Plates look nice! I hope everything with the vest works out

Thanks!  It'll all work out in the end.  :)


Update:

A layer of primer



Then a layer of filler primer after another round if filler and sanding.



And some work on my half chaps.  One is mostly done, just need to put a little bit of leather on the outside of the under the boot strap.

 

 


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Re: Aquatic Post-Imp Build
« Reply #24 on: Dec 27, 2021, 08:18 PM »
Alright, half chaps are pretty much done now.  I am still debating what to do with the extra flap on the half chaps as I am not buying anything new for this build.  I'm only using what I already have on hand and I don't have two matching snaps.  I supposed I could do some that don't match but that just kinda rubs me the wrong way.

 



I'm also debating adding in some keepers for the straps.  I probably will.

I did a quick test fit.  My left shoulder strap I didn't not get shaped right.  So, back to the heat gun with that one.







I'm also going to be pulling the zipper out of the pants of the flight suit because it bulges weird.  Not liking the look.  Might be okay once I add the sash so I'll hold off on tearing it out for now but it's on the list.

I heat formed the shin plates





I also added the main trauma plate to the shins




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Re: Aquatic Post-Imp Build
« Reply #25 on: Dec 27, 2021, 10:15 PM »
Great to finally see the plates on you! Awesome work and I'm really excited to see the trauma plates in the post imperial style. And I can't quite tell what you mean with the half chaps, they looks good to me.
And maybe it's just me, but the backplate looks kinda small? Not sure if that would be considered 2/3rds of your back.

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Re: Aquatic Post-Imp Build
« Reply #26 on: Dec 28, 2021, 08:45 AM »
Looks great :like:

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Re: Aquatic Post-Imp Build
« Reply #27 on: Dec 28, 2021, 10:05 AM »
Great to finally see the plates on you! Awesome work and I'm really excited to see the trauma plates in the post imperial style. And I can't quite tell what you mean with the half chaps, they looks good to me.
And maybe it's just me, but the backplate looks kinda small? Not sure if that would be considered 2/3rds of your back.

For the half chaps, I'm talking about the little grey flap that is hanging free by the ankle.  I either need to cut it off or add a snap to it to keep it in place.

And you're completely right about the back plate.  I totally flubbed my measurements for that.  It's an inch short of the 2/3rds mark (in relation to the length of the back of the vest since it's not supposed to be longer than the vest or wider then the chest armor) and even then I think I'll need it a bit bigger then that to get it to look right.  I'm thinking I'll try to lengthen it with a trauma plate first rather than start over or... 

Which leads me to another question, can I articulate back plates for Post-Imp?  Because that would be preferred and totally fit the aquatic aesthetic of having scales and such.  Plus it makes moving around so much easier.  I could also just add another plate a bit lower and get the spacing right.  CRLs are non-conclusive for this issue. Time to pester my contacts.  ;D

Looks great :like:

Thanks!

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Re: Aquatic Post-Imp Build
« Reply #28 on: Dec 28, 2021, 06:53 PM »
For the half chaps, I'm talking about the little grey flap that is hanging free by the ankle.  I either need to cut it off or add a snap to it to keep it in place.

And you're completely right about the back plate.  I totally flubbed my measurements for that.  It's an inch short of the 2/3rds mark (in relation to the length of the back of the vest since it's not supposed to be longer than the vest or wider then the chest armor) and even then I think I'll need it a bit bigger then that to get it to look right.  I'm thinking I'll try to lengthen it with a trauma plate first rather than start over or... 

Which leads me to another question, can I articulate back plates for Post-Imp?  Because that would be preferred and totally fit the aquatic aesthetic of having scales and such.  Plus it makes moving around so much easier.  I could also just add another plate a bit lower and get the spacing right.  CRLs are non-conclusive for this issue. Time to pester my contacts.  ;D

Gotcha with the half chaps, just do whatever you think looks better!

For the back plate I'm not quite sure what you mean by "articulate", but yeah I would look at references and ask mando friends because the post-imp CRLs are pretty short. I think matching the aesthetic vibe of the era is more important than looking for CRLs that aren't there.

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Re: Aquatic Post-Imp Build
« Reply #29 on: Dec 28, 2021, 08:41 PM »
commenting to follow

 


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