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[Ajax Kaal]

Well, I guess it is time to start the WIP for my start to building a late era crusader.

After about nine months or so of research and pouring over the ref pics and wookieepedia, and various other sites along with some feedback from a mando member (thanks again Seugtai for being a soundboard), I'm going to throw my hat in the ring and see about building my next kit.

First off I love this era as it allows a ton of freedom in creating a mando kit and I love the personality and individual expression shown during this era. This era is one of the mando's most prestigious and glory filled times in galactic history and I love some of the kits shown from this era, so here goes.

Here are the basic concept pics, sorry about the poor quality as i can't draw very well and can't seem to draw what's in my head, so I did what I could.



I'm going to use a black flight suit for the soft parts.
The main armor is shown in grey, it will be a hard plate like base. I plan on doing the EVA foam mat route for this build. I plan on hardening it per the CRL info and guidance from the app team information. I will heat form the main armor pieces and then build upon them and then harden them adding in details and such as I go. I plan on using leather and heavy strapping for the armor plates to strap onto me.

The color armor plates will be added on top of the grey armor base and will be hard pieces as well. I want a built up, layered look to the armor and think this will give a very cool result. I plan on using different thicknesses of foam to add dimension to the kit. The shin and knees will be built into one unit. They will be distinct and seperate, but built and attached to each other to be one unit.

I want the shoulders to be assymetrical and not the same. My right one will be smaller as that side is my firing side. My left one will be bigger as it is my sigil and family color side or such. I do plan on having bicep armor as well.

The final gauntlet design is not set in stone yet, but I want a layered look. Haven't decided on if anything will be on top of them like weapons or anything. A bunch of the mandos in this era don't have weapons on them, they are more of a hard bracer. So, not sure yet...

The crotch armor will be a soft armor like a biker scout or Vader. I plan on sewing it in the form of a padded/quilted look like a lot of the mando's have during this era.

I plan on having a belt with leather pouches deal, the one shown is just for a ref, and not indicative of the final product. It's a placeholder of sorts... I'm thinking of trying to do a hard built in holster on my right thigh to hold a pistol blaster, but haven't figured out the details yet and haven't made the blaster pistol yet, so not sure on final design yet.

I want a hose going from the chest to the jetpack/backpack combo as it is pretty prevalent during the era to have hoses.

Speaking of the jetpack/backpack...


This is pretty much what I am going to be shooting to build. Again sorry for not having mutliple views, but it will be built up in layers. The white main body with jet nozzles will be against my back. Then the light grey will be built up on top of it. As you can see the chest hose will connect to a unit on the left side. I will have a helmet hose connect on the right side and will be seen in the other ref pic for showing the back. Again, not sure if this will be permantently a part of the back plate or if it will be detachable. Thinking detachable, but again, not 100% sure yet...

The helmet design is going to be based on a skater helmet as the base and build and layer on it to build up the helmet. I'm going to use the EVA foam to form all the base parts to include the helmet low hawk that is shown. I will glass over the whole assembly to make it look as one unit and to cover over seams and such. I'll have to have a custom visor made to go behind the TT design. (Thanks Seugtai for the push to go that direction, versus my original idea.) Again, the final look is not set, but this is pretty much what I'm going for. I don't have a side view as I can't seem to draw what I want and I don't have the final design of side pieces set in stone yet. So, I will decide on that during the build.



Here is another shot of the whole back deal...


As you can see, there will be a built up area on the back of the helmet to attach a hose to. It will go from the helmet to the pack as shown in the pic. Disregard the lack of strapping or armor showing on this one, this drawing was to focus on the helmet to backpack and how the backpack will look on the torso.

As for the overall colors, the grey of the base plates, is going to be a medium to dark grey. The blue is going to be a medium to darker blue than shown, while the light blue I want to do a metallic light blue of sorts. What I see in my head is literally a bare metal color with a light blue tint to it. The yellow and green are to add some color and flair, I don't have the back story on that yet.

I will add in small details and such as I go and have most of the strapping and attaching points figured out. As usual, I'll add in pics as I get stuff done and worked on.

Still haven't figured out a blaster rifle/carbine design yet.

Well, at least this is the idea and concepts, we'll see how well I can execute it. Wish me luck! :-)

[Zophar Ptay]

 Glad to see another late crusader in the works.  I had a helmet design very similar to that one in my early planning, I'm looking forward to seeing what comes of it.    Good luck!

[seugtai]

YAY! -happy dance-
You know I love it and I can not wait to watch your progress and see it take shape!

[Hondo Karr]

Nice design, it will be interesting to see come along.

One note on the EVA foam... there is a CRL addendum stickied post on top of the armor planning area... EVA foam is no longer allowed in any capacity.

[Ajax Kaal]

Ummm, I've looked at all the CRL's, including the new one dated October 12th, and there is nothing that says that EVA foam can not be used for armor building, so I'm confused....I also know that Ithaca's Dolob Mendo Crusader era mando got approved and his is made from EVA foam with a resin coat on top of it....could I please get some clarification. I'm not trying to be a pain, but Ive been researching this build for around 9 months and have pored over the CRL's and again, there is nothing that says that EVA foam can not be used. I just reread all the CRL"s again, and can't find anything that says that it can't be used...

The information he talks about with his kit, is that the foam has to be covered with a hard coating, which is the plan. The foam will be formed and made as the base, with additions on top, then the whole thing will be glassed over to harden it up. I don't want soft armor, but the base is fantastic for details and the thickness needed to do a kit from this era.

Please respond asap, as I was about to physically begin building this kit...

Thanks.

[Zophar Ptay]

here is the post.  In case I linked it wrong, it is reply number four of the stickied thread mentioned above.  Posting from my phone, apologies for being terse.

[Ajax Kaal]

Zophar, thanks for highlighting the response....I see it in the link your provided. Part of the issue is that I read the CRL, not the thread. I look to the CRL to be the official guide and don't always go to the thread. That is where my confusion came from....

As an idea, I would highly suggest that they update the official CRL's with this information and not leave it in the thread alone.

So from my understanding then, this kit will never be approved if built from EVA foam, thus can not be accepted as an official kit? I already have an official approved kit as it stands. I know that some have built second kits that don't meet crl's and the kits are not allowed to be used for "official" mercs events, correct?

If so, I could still do the build, but understand that it will never make official status and knowing that, do the build for fun, and just not seek approved status, correct?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. :-)

[OriKad]

You can make it a just for fun kit.  My wife's recently denied second kit is now a just for fun kit for her.  It was denied on an element that was core to the concept, that we're not willing (and due to the material it's made from, not able, as the stitch holes would still be visible) to change to meet the suggestions.  Granted, she's not 100% happy with the comfort of that particular piece, so we may re-apply if we ever remake that portion.

I like EVA, and I've worked with it, and it's easy to work with, and you can probably make it work properly, but that addendum was made to catch those that CAN'T make it work properly and WON'T take the time to do it right.

I don't know if it would pass, (Falin will probably clarify), but a workaround where you make the base form with EVA and then build up a fiberglass (mat AND resin) plate on it might work.  I would view that as the EVA being backing (which is allowed) rather than an armor base (which isn't)  Essentially it's a proper fiberglass plate with EVA interior, but again, don't take this as gospel.

Even inconvenient rules are there for a reason, and are understandable if you take the time to think like the lazy half-shebs that the rules are made to stop.  A sufficiently skilled costumer can make any material work, and work within the rules with only a little extra effort applied to it.

[Zophar Ptay]

I would say worst case, make your eva kit sms use the eva plates as the plug to cast a fiberglass-and-gel-coat final product if it came down to that...

[Ajax Kaal]

I see what you are saying Orikad, but I need guidance to know if I use EVA at all in the build, it will be disqualified for approval. The whole intent is to fiberglass the whole armor parts to make them solid as a rock in the first place. I don't just want foam on my body, that wouldn't look good for what I want to build.

The whole intent is that the foam base, is just that, a base to apply the resin and glass to to make it hard and like armor. I want a hard facing which will be the armor part, and in essence the foam becomes a backing. I don't want any soft crap showing or being exposed. I want hard armor, but have a lot of intricate details and such that are going to be done with the build to really make it look as best as it can. I don't want to just form the foam and then paint and that's it, that would suck in my opinion. I want it hard and tough, like armor should be.

Yep, I understand the reasoning for the rule, it is to keep it from just being soft armor and not really armor at all, and just using the foam and that's it, which was never my intent in the first place. I also understand it is to keep lazy people from making half butt armor. It is just such a cool base to work with, and it has to be hardened in order to be good. Hopefully, they will take into account, the literal months of planning and consideration that I have already done, plus take into account my first build and my intent to always make the best that I can, because I know it reflects directly on me and on the club. I love this club and it was the reason I got into doing my own armor in the first place.

Thanks for the input. :-) and I need to see what they say. 

[Hondo Karr]

Hey Ajax,

The rule came down, not from someone's misuse of the material but, because of another's attempt to discredit the use of the material and integrity of another member. I it's a sealed investigation that names names and resulted in heavy disciplinary actions by the club as a result of. So, I can't reallys ay too much about it.

However, as a result of said investigation this rule has come down which is why it was added to the addendum page, a thread Ruus'alors should check frequently  8). Basically, making changes to the CRL's themselves involve significant discussion and while trying to keep the wording tight and not making the CRL's, which are a bit hard to navaigate as they stand, too much more difficult to understand, we instituted the addendums a year or so ago. It is a place where we can effectively put up "emergency" rule changes due to discovered loopholes, for the pro or con.

Essentially, the App Team and Council were VERY leery of Ithica's original idea to use the EVA. However, he was given the opportunity to show us what he could do and he did good work. Enough to convince us.

Our initial concerns, which still exist, are...
1. EVA foam alone, unless it's sanded smooth, has a visible texture to it. The texture is a dead give away to the material. That was a big concern for us as most, if not all of the EVA foam costumes we had seen we're readily identifiable by sight because of the texture, the extreme thickness or/and the creases as bend point.
2. Even when coated with a resin or fiberglass, this is something tested by Saz and discovered by Ithica, the EVA foam flexes and the resin does not. It's like putting Bondo on ABS plastic. The ABS will bend and flex, the Bondo won't and the end result is cracking damage. The same happens with the EVA foam. The only way to eliminate this is to impregnate rather than coat or put an extremely thick/heavy coat on over the EVA which segways into the next issue...
3. The general thickness of EVA foam. EVA foam is very thick. Personally speaking, I think it is too thick for it's typical applications in HALO, GOW and other serial costuming Ive seen it used on. It's so thick the illusion of armor is almost killed because it's the thickness of tank armor plating. The EVA foam I have seen used in costuming, and I am certain it comes ina  variety of thicknesses like anything else, is 2-3 times thicker than the thickest PVC and 6MM sintra plates used within this club. One thing about Mandalorian armor, as displayed in canon sources and the only physical sources we have ever gotten from LFL (Boba and Jango Fett) it's pretty thin, especially compared to it's protective ability.
4. This is the real kicker, what the investigation was about and what really set in stone the decision to not allow it... the App Team has no way to validate the claimed work has been done to it. While this can certainly happen with any material, EVA foam can very easily, without even having an attempt to do so, "hide" it's make up in lighting, things that stand out in person. If the armor is coated, it can't really be proved or disproved by app pix. If it's not coated, again, it can't really be proved or disproved. Detail high rex photo's or/ad physical examination are the only ways to verify.

So essentially, it's a matter of it's more administrative hassle to allow it than it is worth when there are a great variety of other allowable materials out there to use.

As far as a backing... if it's used as a backing, it shoudl essentially be used for what it was designed for... padding. Not structure. Have a set of knee's you can actually kneel in, but it's uncomfortable, put some EVA back there for comfort not so much build the knee over the EVA foam. As far as using it for an armor building base, it's fairly unstable for resin coating. Materials that will suck up the resin and create better stability are better suited.

A costume could be made from it and could be worn to open events. But, constructed from EVA foam, it would not be an approvable costume for the club and would not be allowable to wear at official events.

[Ajax Kaal]

Falin, thank you very much for the indepth information, that I was missing. I knew of the thread, and realized it was there for just that situation which was to put out information, without doing the whole CRL change and what you said makes sense, in that regards. I just didn't realize they had put in the addendum in regards to EVA, that's my bust.

Thanks for the information on the case, and for not revealing anything in regards to it, it is not necessary and you highlighted the issues very well while maintaining the integrity of the situation, that speaks very highly for the club leadership and I appreciate the ability to respond without violating integrity, very cool.

Yep, I understand about the texture bit and agree, I didn't want to use the textured side, for the reason you highlighted, it looks like foam, lol.

Yep, I saw the information about the testing of resining that side, my plan was to actually fiberglass the whole deal, all sides to include the back, just for that reason. To try and avoid the whole flexing deal. I know of some that put a physical layer of plastic on top of the foam and secure it to the foam so it doesn't move. I figured on coating the whole deal, all sides. I don't want it to flex and bend and crack, that would suck. Yep, it's like painting rubber, if you don't use the right material, it bends and cracks the paint. So, not sure on that one...as I haven't actually done that to a piece yet.

Yep, i hear ya on the thickness, that is why i chose the 1/4 inch, I want thick, but not huge thick. I just noted that in several of the ref pics from the comics and such, the armor from that time period is a lot thicker than the modern era, but I agree there is a fine line about being too thick and looking too much like really out there armor. I've seen the 6mm stuff and know how hard it is to work with it and it would really make this a very tough build and end up being really heavy, more heavy than fun at that point for me. Also, the 6mm is equivalent to 1/4 inch, so I know the thickness I picked was equivalent to the 6mm sintra. I didn't want to go overboard and be huge thick.

I hear ya on the being able to prove whether it is done or not, I'm a photographer and use Photoshop a Lot, I know what can be done with it. I know that is where trust and integrity come into play, and I also know how hard that is to verify and is a slippery slope and understand the position you are highlighting.

I hear ya and understand, that if built as a base, it will not be approvably for official club use. I really want to do this build and see what can be done and see if my theory is right about glassing all sides of it and seeing how it works, but just not sure if I want to put all the time and effort, besides what I have already done, into a kit that won't be approved for official use.

Looks like I will have to do more research and look at this from another creative direction to see what I want to do. Again, thank you for your patience and time in the responses and the information provided for me to be able to make an informed decision. I should have dug deeper. I apologize for any inconvience. :-)

Hmmmm....

[Jerek Darr]

If you are looking for thickness, I would suggest 6mm sintra, heck, foamboardsource.com sells 13mm!

[Ajax Kaal]

Well, I'm going to go ahead and build this as is, I guess for a fun kit, but following my plan on glassing the whole armor plate deal to try to make the armor plates hard. Worst case I'm out some foam, I already had on hand and bought one set. I already have the parts, so figured I might as well do something with what I have and see how it comes out.

As for today, I cut out the front and back main torso pieces and the layered armor parts for the front torso. Already did the basic forming of the front and back with the heat gun and it is coming along pretty well.

I'll get some pics up tomorrow hopefully to show where I'm at now.

Thanks again for all the information and the suggestions. Worst case, if this doesn't work this way, I have some ideas for another possible direction to do this and come pretty close. I just want to give this way a shot and see what I can really do, kind of challenging myself.

:-)

[Ajax Kaal]

Ok, first pics. Nothing too spectacular or anything, it's the basic front torso piece with the basic layered pieces attached.

No detail work done to it yet, I burnt the heck out of one of my fingers when the hot glue squished out...sigh...gotz to love armor building.




This pic has the front and back on the workstation. Speaking of, please excuse the mess, I have to clean it up...


I've got a lot of work to do on this set, to really make it stand out. This is just the basic front for now. This is the very rough formed pieces right now, the edges of the main torso front and back need to be smoothed out still, and as you can see there is a bunch of lines and other marks all over it now.

I used one of my old cavalry vests as the template, with modifications for fitting as the template for the front. Had to alter the upper strap area where they meet up with the back plate due to angle difference.

Once I drew out the template, I used a razor knife to cut out the shape from the one piece of mat. Then used the heat gun on high to start heating up areas that needed bent/formed and using my body to form it to. One sheet did the front and one for the back so far.

Once sastifiied with the basic fit, using tape to put it over my shoulders to see how it lines up, I then drew up where I wanted the top layer pieces to go on and make sure they were lined up, and then did the measurements for them and then cut them out using some thin sheets from hobby lobby. A very sharp razor knife and slow cuts does the trick. Still had to use the dremel tool with a sanding disc on it to smooth out the edges of the foam where I did the cutting. This is going to be a slow steady process as much as I can as there will be a lot of small details to be cut into the main base pieces.

Oh a good note to remember, when you are making something that has identical cuts on each side, use the first piece you cut out to draw on the second piece. I cut out the right side for my arm hole and then flipped it over and used it to do the other side. When I drew it out and was looking at the lines, I noted that they weren't perfect. apparently the arm holes on my cavalry vest are not perfectly similar....so by using the piece I cut from one side, flipping it over and using it for the other side, meant that the arm holes were now matched up correctly.

I need to cut out one more box shape piece to put into the center of the upper plate to add a detail look to the top layered piece. Then I need to work on laying out some detail lines and such and come up with the chest box and build up the hose connector area.

More to come.

:-)